I will no longer be able to assist with development nor debugging actual issues with the software… Quite juvenile behavior from the devs. It stemmed from this issue where the devs continuously argued in public by opening and closing an issue. Anyway, thought I would keep y’all apprised of the situation, since these are the people maintaining the software you are currently using.

  • starman ( starman@programming.dev ) English
    81·
    3 years ago

    I think that you should update your post with information that this ban is only for 7 days.

    This:

    I will no longer be able to assist with development

    suggests that ban is infinite, which is not true.

  • Nutomic ( nutomic@lemmy.ml ) 
    56·
    3 years ago

    You kept posting offtopic comments which added nothing to resolving the issue. So I gave you a seven day ban, hopefully it will teach you a lesson.

    • snowe ( snowe@programming.dev ) OP
      51·
      3 years ago

      My first comment directly discusses the issue at hand. It wasn’t off topic. It’s clear you didn’t want any feedback on the issue because it makes you look bad. I explicitly talked about how client side scheduling is a bad idea that does not accomplish the goal of scheduling. And then I gave feedback directly concerning the exact issue I was commenting on of how your conduct was unfitting of lead devs of a major software project, where you squabbled in public in a really weird way, and you refused to even think about discussing the topic (closing the issue over and over again when your coworker had opened it and asked for discussion? Really dude?). Then you finally banned me without any warning or discussion of why.

      And no, it’s not going to teach me any lesson, all it did was teach the entire community you have no clue how to run an open source software project. No warning, no explanation, just juvenile marking of comments as off topic (they weren’t), closing of the issue your main dev opened and then boom banned.

      • mark ( mark@programming.dev ) 
        24·
        3 years ago

        This isnt the first time Nutomic has reacted in such a egotistical way, especially when someone points out a flaw in the software. I’ve seen a few issues that were actual issues with the software–not feature requests–that he’s closed and dismissed. One of the issues were mine. He definitely needs help with maintaining the software but I dont know how he expects anyone to help with the way he’s been acting.

      • Nutomic ( nutomic@lemmy.ml ) 
        23·
        3 years ago

        My comment about scheduling in clients was from January and that option was already discarded by dessalines on the next day. No use in rehashing the same thing ten months later. All you are doing is creating pointless notifications for everyone. I know its not ideal to close and reopen an issue, but really why is it a big deal? We closed hundreds of issues recently which were outdated, invalid or already fixed. I accidentally closed one that still needs to be implemented and dessalines reopened it, so everything is fine. Certainly not a “squabble”, and your comments added nothing at all.

        Its true that I shouldnt have given a warning first, but most likely you would have responded with another offtopic complaint so I didnt see any use in that. If you want to complain then do it somewhere else, not on the issue tracker which is meant for getting work done.

        • philm ( philm@programming.dev ) 
          1·
          3 years ago

          And yet, I don’t know of a better project. Growing, maintained projects will usually get better over time (take major refactors, when being modular, rewritten parts of it etc.). But yeah growing needs to have a healthy and friendly Community Code of Conduct, and that I am more concerned of…

          • millie ( millie@beehaw.org ) English
            3·
            3 years ago

            Really?

            Mastodon. Firefish. KBin. Pleroma. Pixelfed.

            Like, every other instance type on Activitypub. Lemmy doesn’t work better than any of them, it’s just more geared toward community discussion (KBin aside). What Lemmy prospers from isn’t just the project itself, but the communities that happen to have attached themselves to it.

            • philm ( philm@programming.dev ) 
              3·
              3 years ago

              Mastodon - not a link aggregator, tree-threaded, kbin hmm PHP (yuk) and mostly one contributor and by far not as feature rich as lemmy. The rest similarly as Mastodon is not close to reddit as lemmy is.

              And yes ActivityPub grows with multiple projects, but I mean specifically something like lemmy or kbin and something that can be a reddit replacement of sorts. There’s a little bit more happening than just ActivityPub behind the scenes btw. And it’s still no small feat to have a platform like Mastodon or lemmy (I think those two are the mostly the forerunners by now). Sure it’s not super complex, but the amount of features are often underestimated by a lot of people (as far as I can read here and often somewhere else, so why is there no real alternative to lemmy yet…?)

              • millie ( millie@beehaw.org ) English
                2·
                3 years ago

                Yeah, I mean, that’s fair. I do obviously prefer the discussion format or I’d be off fiddling around with Firefish. But also, like, on another level, the redditesque format seems to bring this inherent negativity, toxicity and one-upping garbage. Though that has gotten a lot worse since the reddit exodus, I think part of that is just people getting back into that familiar comfort zone.

                It would be nice to see something that isn’t quite as user-focused as Mastodon or Firefish but isn’t quite designed to be a Reddit clone in a way that might bring something new to the table.

                • philm ( philm@programming.dev ) 
                  2·
                  3 years ago

                  Sure I’m totally in for something new, maybe even more in a wiki based style (i.e. collecting knowledge) or a mix of all kinds of things (like StackExchange etc.). But I don’t think that the concerns you have, have much to do with the platform and more with the users using the platform. The communities I’m mostly on, are civil and objective/less emotionally driven. This topic is (as the title already implies) a little bit the exception…

            • philm ( philm@programming.dev ) 
              2·
              3 years ago

              Nah the old official reddit code is entirely out of date, writing up something like the original official reddit clone, is not too hard, and I would rather rewrite it (in Rust obviously ^^).

              Hubzilla is certainly an interesting and ambitious project (though a PHP codebase repels me a little bit, TBH). Need to check it out further. Zot also sounds interesting. Looks a little bit like a swiss-army-knife sandbox-toolkit of federated social networks.

              • FriendBesto ( FriendBesto@lemmy.ml ) 
                1·
                3 years ago

                I wanted to run an instance myself but find the info and user-base lacking. Like I really want to like Hubzilla.

                You are right, it is very ambitious and it is a bit sad to not see it gather more traction.

    • dudinax ( dudinax@programming.dev ) 
      42·
      3 years ago

      The comments read like you banned the dev for making a telling point in favor of reopening the ticket.

      The lesson I take away is that your ego is more important to you than improving Lemmy.

        • philm ( philm@programming.dev ) 
          5·
          3 years ago

          Really? Is it necessary to ban people about making a valid argument. I know and also don’t like people asking a low effort “What’s the status of this” (and would totally get why such a thing would be marked off-topic, but a ban over something like this is still to harsh IMHO, they will learn, that such questions are not well-received over just the marking it as off-topic).

          But the comment discussed here has a valid concern (quickly closing issues that don’t have satisfactory solution yet, without getting feedback).

          A better reaction would be to just ask, whether the issue at hand is still relevant, having [these] alternatives at hand etc.

    • Chefdano3 ( Chefdano3@lemm.ee ) English
      40·
      3 years ago

      You want to teach a lesson? The only lesson you’re teaching here is that you’re a twat. You get some hardheaded opinion on someone’s suggestion, refuse to listen to anything else, and ban them for explaining themselves. Grow up.

      • nieceandtows ( nieceandtows@programming.dev ) 
        9·
        3 years ago

        Yeah this guy is acting as if he’s a programming god who created something nobody could. This instance is called programming.dev, filled with programmers who know a little something about this programming thing. I’m a 15yoe self taught data engineer, and if I understand one thing, it is that anybody can learn programming and become great at it. I’m always proud of my code, but I never think my code is perfect. Programming and technology as a whole is constantly evolving, and what was clever/genius/wizardry yesterday is obsolete tomorrow. The only asset to a programmer is to be able to always learn new stuff, because there is always new stuff and better ways to do what you did in the past. I don’t even give detailed directions to my interns because I want to see if they do things in a different way that is better than the way I usually do things.

    • Joe ( joe_archer@feddit.uk ) 
      16·
      3 years ago

      Quite the ego you have there, I bet you’re fun at parties.

      Projects fail when developers alienate their contributors. Grow up and act like an adult.

    • millie ( millie@beehaw.org ) English
      7·
      3 years ago

      Aggression and dishonesty aren’t going to help. You’d be better off dropping the defensive arguing and realizing that you overreacted. It’s okay to have screwed something up and admit it. You’d be getting a much better reaction if your response was along the lines of ‘Whoops, yep. Guess I’m a bit of a hot-head sometimes, I’ll try to look out for that.’

      But when someone literally can’t ever admit that they could possibly be wrong, that they could possibly have overreacted in any way, how is anyone supposed to work with that?

      Everyone is wrong sometimes. Being intractable about it doesn’t get you anywhere.

  • 𝒍𝒆𝒎𝒂𝒏𝒏 ( lemann@lemmy.one ) 
    48·
    3 years ago

    Informative, and unfortunate.

    100% agree with your take on the original issue - it should be a discussion between the devs, not edging along the lines of an argument. However, I do feel like the discussion would have been better suited to the dev Matrix chat or something

    Even if they were upsetted by your comments, banning you was not the right way to handle that IMO.

  • Sibbo ( Sibbo@sopuli.xyz ) 
    33·
    3 years ago

    Everyone is human, everyone makes mistakes. Sometimes people are also in a very bad mood and act weirdly because of that. Let’s not make a big drama out of it.

  • spaduf ( spaduf@slrpnk.net ) 
    31·
    3 years ago

    Lemmy needs a fork, if only to kick the devs into gear with regards to actually working with/listening to the community. At this point a significant number of users have been lost because the devs have been largely unable to capitalize on previous waves on growth due to slow development. It’s one thing if it’s just a couple of devs working on the project and trying their best, it’s an entirely different thing when a couple of devs are shutting out large numbers of contributors (frequently subject matter experts which they desperately need at this point) over relatively trivial issues. This isn’t the first time this has happened and it won’t be the last. Mbin is reviving Kbin as a project and we need something similar for Lemmy.

      • spaduf ( spaduf@slrpnk.net ) 
        23·
        3 years ago

        Let’s not forget, there is a very real sense in which building the communities is harder than building the software. Anything that can be done to preserve existing communities is a win in my book.

      • interolivary ( interolivary@beehaw.org ) 
        9·
        3 years ago

        Yeah, I’d tend to agree. Lemmy’s codebase is pretty atrocious and it looks like the main devs really don’t know Rust well enough, and honestly they don’t seem to be very good at developing a service like this. There’s just no reason to go with Rust for a web service project like Lemmy (despite what Rust cultists will undoubtedly soon come to tell me), it limits the amount of people who can work on it due to not being as commonly used in this particular field, and it’s honestly baffling how they managed to use Rust and make the service as slow as it is – speaks volumes of how shitty the design is, and that they’re doing something fairly stupid with their database.

        • philm ( philm@programming.dev ) 
          10·
          3 years ago

          despite what Rust cultists will undoubtedly soon come to tell me

          And here I am :)

          There’s a lot of reasons to go with Rust (and least of all performance), especially as web-backend. Top-notch libraries/ecosystem (I work extensively with all kinds of programming languages and most others suck in one way or the other). At this point I dare to say that it has the best ecosystem in this regards. Also a static type-system only being exceeded by Haskell (when talking about general purpose languages, that are actually in use), which makes projects maintainable by a lot of people, especially relevant for an open source project. There’s a reason why a lot of high quality projects are either rewriting or starting in Rust or are thinking to switch to… Etc. don’t want to throw more Rust evangalism at you, since there’s a lot to just google and learn…

          Anyway, there were a few changes lately that made federated lemmy better (with the last release especially), the initial bugs I accept. But I agree, they aren’t veterans from the valley with multiple years of experience, just a bunch of idealists that had an idea and were persistent enough for years to implement it, I certainly have respect for that. What I don’t like, is that they are moderating a little bit too much, not being mostly community focused (among others, to avoid forks). But bringing a federated link aggregator like lemmy to the place where it currently is, at least takes quite a bit of time… So a fork (if really necessary) sounds like the most likely way forward…

            • philm ( philm@programming.dev ) 
              5·
              3 years ago

              Sure you can doubt me as much as you want (and this is probably a healthy attitude). I tend to educate myself, and learn from experience (and that I dare to say, I do have…). As you may have guessed, I really recommend looking into it, there’s so many good design decisions with Rust (and the ecosystem). As a starting point/library: axum would be the web-framework I’d recommend to use (as it uses Rust quite idiomatically). And for e.g. service communication via grpc, tonic is quite nice. As database abstraction layer the last time I have used sqlx which was quite convenient to use. (So far with a “classic” web-stack). And rust-analyzer is probably the best language server I have used (and felt the fast development over the time (with “successful” switch of the maintainer), which speaks for itself as well…).

              Btw. it also really depends on what you actually mean with “web backend development”. I.e. “just” writing a web-server that takes connections via HTTP or something deeper the stack…

            • kmaismith ( kmaismith@lemm.ee ) 
              5·
              3 years ago

              I mean, “best” is infinitely subjective. I would be inclined to think any anyone who says “php is the best backend software ecosystem for web” doesn’t care much about programming and are really only in the business of making money. Rust is at the creative forefront right now, it makes sense a bunch of pissed off people chose rust to make a reddit clone, it would be challenging to draw passionate engineers to a php or java project; it gives a way to draw more helpful attention (which they are as we now see squandering)

              • philm ( philm@programming.dev ) 
                2·
                3 years ago

                Yeah best is probably not the “best” wording and a little bit provocative, but it’s the “best” ecosystem I have found so far (and I squabbled around with like ~10+ programming languages, often at a deeper level). I’m mostly talking out of a development-experience + quality of software standpoint.

                I’m very happy to be proven wrong, or be given a different direction (but C# or JS/TS are definitely not the languages/ecosystem I want to be confronted with, or even maintain systems in it…)

  • mark ( mark@programming.dev ) 
    28·
    3 years ago

    Dude, who in their right mind would add scheduling infra to a client like that? 😆 I’m going to need these Lemmy devs to have a tad bit more experience before they start being so dismissive, especially to someone who’s just trying to help.

    • TempestTiger ( TempestTiger@programming.dev ) 
      7·
      3 years ago

      Hi there more experienced person, would you mind explaining the intricacies of the madness for a lowly n00b?

      Is it just 'cause it’d need the client to be constantly running to output the scheduling? So like, you set it to schedule a post and then you have to actually open it as an app before it would actually work if it wasn’t running in the background when the time ticked over? Is there more to it? Any and all details you’d be willing to explain would be appreciated.

      Regardless, I hope you have a lovely day and best of luck with everything you’re doing!

    • Raphael ( rglullis@communick.news ) English
      3·
      3 years ago

      A “client” in this context can mean anything, including another separate service.

      This makes no sense to have in a desktop/mobile app, but it certainly should not go to the server as well.

  • mao ( mao@lemmy.sdf.org ) 
    27·
    3 years ago

    Idk I think y’all are a bit too dramatic lol. Imho you’re reading too much into a small aggression. This has nothing to do with the future of Lemmy or anything as grandiose as that

    • kugel7c ( kugel7c@feddit.de ) 
      19·
      3 years ago

      Idk if they care about a particular thing FOOS devs are often petty. I don’t think it’s actually a threat to the project. Like read unix mailing lists from Linus or whoever else, it can get downright toxic. e.g.:

      "BULLSHIT. Have you looked at the patches you are talking about? You should have - several of them bear your name. […] As it is, the patches are COMPLETE AND UTTER GARBAGE. […] WHAT THE F*CK IS GOING ON? " here

  • xan1242 ( xan1242@lemmy.ml ) 
    16·
    3 years ago

    Hmm, where have I seen that before? Oh yeah, on PCSX2.

    Your time and talent is better spent elsewhere. Don’t even think about this any longer.

    You wanted to help and they acted in this way. You made yourself clear, so it’s on them to reevaluate.

    Your time isn’t free, so don’t spend it on stupid people. I know you’re passionate and want to help, but sometimes it unfortunately comes down to this.

    • millie ( millie@beehaw.org ) English
      6·
      3 years ago

      I have GIMP and Photoshop installed and have at all times for well over a decade. I literally only use GIMP and I use it nearly every single day. Photoshop does some fancy stuff that GIMP isn’t as good at, but as far as basic image editing? Give me the lightweight FOSS client with a sleek minimalist UI that’s been the same for ages over some bulky corporate offering that loves to move things around and change its appearance just to look new.

      I agree that Lemmy is a mess, but GIMP is the wrong target for this post. It’s fantastic.

        • millie ( millie@beehaw.org ) English
          6·
          3 years ago

          I’m not kidding anyone. I might not have the same needs or standards as you do, but I absolutely do prefer GIMP and use it over Photoshop. Yeah, there are limitations. I didn’t say it was a better program. Yes, it can be kind of annoying to have to make changes to text. And yes, if your work flow requires you to have these tools it probably isn’t a solution for you.

          But frankly, people don’t all need to do things the same way. I’m sure you’re capable of producing something that looks better than much of my output in half the time and have a much more efficient workflow. Cool. But that doesn’t mean I’m some kind of imaginary non-person because I actually enjoy using GIMP.

          Why on Earth does that make you angry? It’s literally not even any of your business.

          If I used a different kind of paintbrush than you, would that matter? Literally who cares?

          Krita sounds cool and I’ll probably check it out, but chances are very good that I continue to use GIMP in addition to whatever else I might find useful simply because I like it and I’m comfortable with it.

          Why in the world should that make anyone angry? It’s okay for people to like different things.

            • millie ( millie@beehaw.org ) English
              3·
              3 years ago

              I mean, personally, I make a lot of layers and save my work a lot, and I make use of the undo/redo stack. Again, like, it isn’t perfect, but I used to do pixel art in the Palace editor. Like, maybe my standards just aren’t very high.

              I’ve been working on game assets using GIMP and it’s been totally sufficient. But like, maybe Krita could add to my workflow. I’m not opposed to the idea of tuning my work flow to get better results. I do have concerns about spending excessive time learning new environments for only marginal benefit considering how wide my net has to be, but if it’s a big time saver it might be worth it.

            • FriendBesto ( FriendBesto@lemmy.ml ) 
              2·
              3 years ago

              I edit photography and for serious work, I agree with you. The FOSS lover in me really, really wanted to like GIMP but I find myself just having it there, taking space most of the time. For light work and simple touch up work GIMP is fine, but if I already have Ps or hell, even Lightroom fired up, then I might as well used those for quick fixes as they exist closer or are part of my regular workflow. Guess the issue seems to come down to if you are willing to pay for the software. If one wants to spend $0, or one has light-use needs, then the use case for GIMP increases. But if you need more professional software, then you are likely to just pay for the industry standard for the extra features.

              That is not to say that GIMP is useless, which is what I think some people may be thinking. I have been meaning to look at Krita, if only due to curiosity for a while. So thanks for reminding me.