Is this for real? I can’t draw no other conclusion than US defaultism in trans activism gives a free pass to TERF politics in Europe. This kind of news from Germany cannot mean anything good.
According to Wikipedia:
In 2019, the German Language Association VDS (Verein Deutsche Sprache; not to be confused with the Association for the German Language Gesellschaft für deutsche Sprache, GfdS) launched a petition against the use of the gender star, saying it was a “destructive intrusion” into the German language and created “ridiculous linguistic structures”. It was signed by over 100 writers and scholars.[11] Luise F. Pusch, a German feminist linguist, criticises the gender star as it still makes women the ‘second choice’ by the use of the feminine suffix.[12] In 2020, the Gesellschaft für deutsche Sprache declared Gendersternchen to be one of the 10 German Words of the Year.[13]
In 2023, the state of Saxony banned the use of gender stars and gender gaps in schools and education, which marks students’ use of the gender stars as incorrect.[14][15] In March 2024, Bavaria banned gender-neutral language in schools, universities and several other public authorities.[16][17] In April 2024, Hesse banned the use of gender neutral language, including gender stars, in administrative language.[18]
Here are the original Wikipedia references
- “Der Aufruf und seine Erstunterzeichner”. Verein Deutsche Sprache (in German). 6 March 2019. Retrieved 5 April 2020.
- Schlüter, Nadja (22 April 2019). ““Das Gendersternchen ist nicht die richtige Lösung””. Jetzt.de (in German). Retrieved 5 April 2020. “GfdS Wort des Jahres” (in German). Retrieved 13 December 2020.
- Jones, Sam; Willsher, Kim; Oltermann, Philip; Giuffrida, Angela (2023-11-04). “What’s in a word? How less-gendered language is faring across Europe”. The Guardian. ISSN 0261-3077. Retrieved 2024-04-05.
- “Schools in Saxony are forbidden to use gender language”. cne.news. Retrieved 2024-04-05.
I got into this rabbit hole from this news article
- urbautz ( @urbautz@wehavecookies.social ) 44•1 month ago
@whydudothatdrcrane No, gender neutral pronouns are not banned. What is banned is the Binnen-I (Mitarbeiter*innen). It is recommended to use much easier to read Mitarbeiter und Mitarbeiterinnen or Mitarbeitende. Also the belittled version Mitarbeiterchen is gender neutral and allowed.
- ChaoticNeutralCzech ( @ChaoticNeutralCzech@feddit.org ) English24•1 month ago
As a person regularly writing regular expressions, the usage of
*
in a written language rubs me the wrong way. I wouldn’t mind Mitarbeiter/innen, similar to how Czech does it (prodavač/ka, although some are impossible to shorten like skladník/skladnice, as skladník/ce sounds too weird, much like Krankenschwesterinnen would).regularly writing regular expressions
The statement speaks for itself.
- tobogganablaze ( @tobogganablaze@lemmus.org ) English5•1 month ago
Krankenschwesterinnen
Der Begriff ist eh obsolte, ist nun Krankenpfleger.
- Tja ( @Tja@programming.dev ) 2•1 month ago
I think you mean Krankenpfleger*in
- tobogganablaze ( @tobogganablaze@lemmus.org ) English5•1 month ago
I think you mean Krankenpfleger
I have the “Binnen-I be gone” extension install :(
- Tja ( @Tja@programming.dev ) 1•1 month ago
Drats, my plan is foiled!
- ChaoticNeutralCzech ( @ChaoticNeutralCzech@feddit.org ) English1•1 month ago
Auch, wenn es sich um Kategorie abartige Kostüme handelt?
(Ist “abartig” das richtige Wort? Der Übersetzungsdienst, den ich normal verwende, bietet etwas anderes an.)
- Venator ( @Venator@lemmy.nz ) 1•1 month ago
I don’t know but I wouldn’t be surprised if those words are the reason for the
*
being included on the keyboard in the first place 😅- ChaoticNeutralCzech ( @ChaoticNeutralCzech@feddit.org ) English1•1 month ago
Multiplication. It’s why it’s on the numpad.
Also, normal non-technical text also never uses these keyboard characters
@^\|_
` but they are there. If the computer keyboard was designed for proper typography, there would be keys fornbsp
, curly quotes or the em dash.- Venator ( @Venator@lemmy.nz ) 1•1 month ago
Wouldn’t it make more sense just to use
×
instead if that was the case? I guess maybe it makes it easier to differentiate it fromx
?I guess it’s probably just a hold over from typewriters that ended up setting the standard for computers e.g. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_2741
I understand this is a fine point. What is the status report on gender legislation in Germany then? Is this isolated from broader anti-trans politics as a matter of language puritanism and aesthetics?
- urbautz ( @urbautz@wehavecookies.social ) 6•1 month ago
@whydudothatdrcrane There are only two relevant parties who are against gender neutrality: The Nazis from AfD and CxU. I also don*t like the Binnen-I and use an browser extension to fix that for me.
Krankenschwester is already female the offical Job name is Krankenpflegefachkraft (which is already neutral).
I see. Probably most North-Americans would confuse “gender-neutral” with “non-binary inclusive”.
- Asyx ( @Asyx@lemmy.ml ) 2•1 month ago
That’s a north American problem though. German settled on nouns that are more like “the ones who X”. Like, Studierende instead of Studenten and Studentinnen. (The last two are just “students” in their gender specific form. The first one literally translated means “the ones who study”)
- timestatic ( @timestatic@feddit.org ) English1•1 month ago
The gender star is anything but gender neutral. It highlight the different genders artificially and still makes the female variant of the word the second choice by separating it like this /* This differentiates it from the default general masculine word which is supposed to include everybody and further strengthens the image of the man as the default in a certain job. I’m sorry but I strongly disagree with you on this one.
And for non-Native german speakers, if this sounds confusing that is because it is!
- atro_city ( @atro_city@fedia.io ) 23•1 month ago
Let’s be honest: it looks like shit and interrupts the flow of a sentence. The alternative of writing both words completely also makes sentences way longer than they should be.
Every gendered language would have to make massive changes to become ungendered and change their grammar too. There’s quite a large list of ungendered languages.
German, to my knowledge, is like Russian and has cases which change the ending of a noun depending on the purpose in the sentence (subject, direct object, indirect object, possessor, location, time, …). Languages with only male and female would have to add a neutral ending, and languages with 3 grammatical genders would have to either use the neutral ending - if there is one, or make a new one specific to living beings.
Then of course pronouns would have to be changed too. In English they/them is already confusing enough when talking about a singular person to somebody and the person doesn’t know it’s a single person e.g “I talked to them today” - a group or a person? Until hints are dropped it isn’t clear. The most logical would’ve been “it”, but that’s used for inanimate objects. I’m sure there’s a neutral third person singular pronoun languages could borrow instead of using the second person plural.
But aren’t all these technicalities to undermine the inclusion of one or more genders on the basis of some linguistic purism?
This makes me smirk, because a single course in college linguistics will persuade you there is not bigger amalgamated bastard in town than a human language, which is any non-formal language.
For example, you say they ambiguity of they/them, isn’t this comparable to the ambiguity between you/you in plural/singular.
Ambiguity is like, an inherent feature of any language and there are hundreds of languages that resolve ambiguities based on context. Plus, the scholars said that singular them is in usage since the Middle Ages or sth.
So to me all this is a tension between A and B, where A is either linguistic purism or typographical convenience, and B is always including women/trans/non-binary folks. At the same time most people won’t accept the feminine gender as all-inclusive because of their fears of emasculation.
It is a deeply laughable situation.
- Miaou ( @Miaou@jlai.lu ) 1•1 month ago
Would be interesting to know what’s your native language, to get an idea of what evolutions are possible.
Because surely someone with such a stark opinion on the matters speaks a gendered language natively, right?
- Tja ( @Tja@programming.dev ) 5•1 month ago
FYI: Unlike Russian and other Slavic languages German doesn’t (usually) decline the noun, just the article (der/den/dem/des, etc).
- atro_city ( @atro_city@fedia.io ) 2•1 month ago
Thanks, you’re correct. I was mixing that up with Latin and Greek. Dunno if Spanish and other romance languages have it too.
- Tja ( @Tja@programming.dev ) 2•1 month ago
Not Spanish or French, other romance I don’t think so, maybe Romanian?
- macniel ( @DmMacniel@feddit.org ) 11•1 month ago
Yeah Saxony and Bavaria are pretty much in the hand of populistic politicians and or outright right extremists.
- Zahtu ( @Zahtu@feddit.org ) 5•1 month ago
Yeah, pretty much that. Just because those Staates have banned it in administrative formal writing, this is in no Case a generalization for Germany. Just “Freistaat” doing their Thing as opposed to the other.
Also as a Note, that “Verein” has in no Case any inflouence over the course of education, as that is governed* by the “Gesellschaft” as mentioned.
*As in giving recommendations
Ah Bavaria has right wing extremists? I miss the times when one could flee to the US under similar circumstances.
- Tja ( @Tja@programming.dev ) 7•1 month ago
Bavaria is like Texas. You have Munich and a few other cities that are progressive and vote even green (so, Austin) , and the rest is cowboys and farmers.
- macniel ( @DmMacniel@feddit.org ) 5•1 month ago
Mostly Populists like Söder of CSU.
- ShinkanTrain ( @ShinkanTrain@lemmy.ml ) English5•1 month ago
I don’t know what a gender star is, but it sounds cool
- Sas [she/her] ( @Sas@beehaw.org ) 1•1 month ago
So in German we have different forms of job descriptions depending if the gender of the person. So doctor would be Arzt for a dude and Ärztin for a lass. Now when talking about a mixed gender group of doctors, the plural form of the masculine form would be generally used. This kinda leads to people always thinking about a group of male doctors. To mitigate that, there’s been multiple attempts to make more inclusive forms. For the most time listing both forms was the go to, as in Ärzte und Ärztinnen. The gender star was an attempt to combine it into Ärzt*Innen in which the star was read as a little pause. Other ways to write that pause include ÄrztInnen where you just capitalize the I and my favourite Ärzt:Innen, as the : is read as a pause by screen readers while the star is read as it’s own word by then. My actual favourite form however is gendering after Phettberg which entirely gets rid of the gender and builds a different plural: Ärztis. It also sounds cute and I’m all for more cuteness. That form sadly is used nowhere.
- Cpo ( @Cpo@lemm.ee ) 3•1 month ago
And why would you care? You are obviously not German (otherwise you would know that the shit you post is BS) and obviously scared about inclusivity (because you worry about how other people call themselves).
Get a life.
Since this vile comment goes against Lemmy etiquette I need not provide a response. But I will.
how other people call themselves
You must be another level of stupid to write this out. Perhaps you mean, I shouldn’t care what other “governments” or “majorities” want their citizens to call or not-call themselves. Only a nationalist would say such a thing, that your government has the right to self-define (or …impose?) how its people call themselves. This is some true Orban-level shit you managed to fit in your, well, fit.
And, yes, this is a politics issue I want to see in the same maps we monitor US gender politics with.
obviously not German
Very proudly not so. I cherish the fact that German nationalists tend to end up shot or hang, as one of the few things that provide meaning to my post-WWII life. The historical equivalent of a narcissist man-child demanding attention to himself, a real small-dick energy nation, that enthusiastically voted for a mustached idiot for the job. So, not German, and so happy about it.
obviously scared about inclusivity
The fact that you fail to understand this is a pro-inclusivity post means that you are so dump that you would have been euthanized in your own country, less than 100 years ago, unless you enrolled to a specific party of anti-intellectual idiots. Ah I forgot, you already are. Sound survival of the fittest strategy.
Now, let’s sit around waiting you to ridicule yourself with another one of these comments ROFL
- Cpo ( @Cpo@lemm.ee ) 2•1 month ago
The “star construct” you mention and hang an entire theory on is just a German language construct. It has to do with gender but not the way you imagine it to be. Just gender as a language construct (German is full of gender constructs).
Maybe I made the error of explaining your post with the typical US “there is only one gender” stance which is so irritatingly omni present on youtube nowadays.
But if that was not your intention, it might also be an error to call me nationalist. I am not. I am all for gender inclusivity. If you are as well we have no beef.
And PS: yes, you are still an asshole.
you are still an asshole
Thank you
the error of explaining your post with the typical US
Sure enough going after your colloquotors’ nationality was an ill-chosen angle, since you wanted to criticize the idea of one-gender, reducing it to Americans. Same goes for another asshole who was quick to attribute it to me supposedly being the speaker of a “genderless” language.
This is a bullshit attitude because you are going for the extra step.
“You don’t get the nuances of our language to understand what this is about. It is because you are not German / you are the native of a genderless language / you are a US defaultist who wants to impose his own view”
For one thing I hardly think English is a genderless language, and second has it crossed your mind someone can speak several languages fluently, some of which “gendered”.
I am not responsible for the lamentable state of internet discussions these days, but next time try to formulate and debunk the opponent idea before spewing several extra thought steps, bringing ad hominem and national origins into the mix, if you don’t want to be spoken to like that.
an error to call me nationalist. I am not
Great, Good for you
- Cpo ( @Cpo@lemm.ee ) 1•1 month ago
Jeez you really are full of it.
Nevermind. Have fun playing by yourself.