EDIT: no, I don’t sympathize with nazis (neither I sympathize with those who call everyone nazi when they’re losing an argument ;)
- Veraticus ( @Veraticus@lib.lgbt ) English205•1 year ago
Most defederation isn’t because people are disagreeing though. It’s because the people they’re defederating from are assholes.
- ATQ ( @ATQ@lemm.ee ) 152•1 year ago
OP is a three day old account. They know this, this meme is just them crying about it.
- Scrubbles ( @scrubbles@poptalk.scrubbles.tech ) English124•1 year ago
Instance know for trolling and being assholes is eventually defederated
You just don’t understand us!
- Veraticus ( @Veraticus@lib.lgbt ) English73•1 year ago
Lol right? And if you even try to engage it’s constant sealioning, memeing, and dunking.
- mustardman ( @mustardman@discuss.tchncs.de ) English37•1 year ago
Sealioning? No, you just won’t read my 10,000 word post that is copied from someone else’s pHD.
Edit: No joke, after posting this I got this message from a Hexbear user:
I’ve read all three volumes of [Das Kapital] around a month ago because I had an autistic urge to do it
tell me with full seriousness that you’ve even glanced at it
- Veraticus ( @Veraticus@lib.lgbt ) English19•1 year ago
Have you even read Gramsci? You really can’t disagree with anything I say until you’ve read Gramsci. Sorry, I don’t make the rules!
This is why my instance is defederated with them though. It’s just bad faith nonsense all the way down.
- vacuumflower ( @vacuumflower@lemmy.sdf.org ) 4•1 year ago
I mean, it’s not a huge problem to read Marx or Gramsci before arguing about Marx or Gramsci. You don’t have to read all they wrote, of course. To form an opinion on Gadamer I don’t have to read everything he wrote.
- Veraticus ( @Veraticus@lib.lgbt ) English7•1 year ago
That’s different than what I said though, which is that you can’t disagree with me without reading Gramsci. And is also typically how these authors’ names are invoked in arguments which are not about the authors themselves.
- vacuumflower ( @vacuumflower@lemmy.sdf.org ) 1•1 year ago
While discussing Gramsci - then they’d be obviously correct that you should be familiar with the subject to disagree or agree or anyhing.
- 𝘋𝘪𝘳𝘬 ( @Dirk@lemmy.ml ) 20•1 year ago
You mean hexbear, kbin, and lemmygrad?
I hope so.
- odium ( @odium@programming.dev ) 26•1 year ago
What’s wrong with kbin?
- Nils ( @nils@feddit.de ) English18•1 year ago
Yeah who defederated kbin?
- Erika2rsis ( @Erika2rsis@lemmy.blahaj.zone ) 14•1 year ago
You might wish to be aware that your instance’s top-level domain was chosen because ML stands for “Marxism-Leninism”, and that the main admin of lemmy.ml has a photo of Mao as his profile banner. So you’re probably going to have a hard time convincing your instance’s admins to defederate from Hexbear and Lemmygrad, all things considered.
- uniqueid198x ( @uniqueid198x@lemmy.dbzer0.com ) 23•1 year ago
Hexbear is known for trolling, regardless of their political stance, unless there is a material analysis that pig poop balls advances the cause somehow.
- Erika2rsis ( @Erika2rsis@lemmy.blahaj.zone ) 18•1 year ago
I’m just saying that if one wishes to be defederated from Hexbear, then one should migrate off of lemmy.ml first. The admins of that instance are not going to be open to defederating Hexbear.
- uniqueid198x ( @uniqueid198x@lemmy.dbzer0.com ) 6•1 year ago
thats totally fair. I’m not actually on lemmy.ml, and my instance sees no real reason to talk ibout hexbear. Their trolling isn’t disruptive to our communities, and is fairly easily filtered
- uniqueid198x ( @uniqueid198x@lemmy.dbzer0.com ) 4•1 year ago
thats totally fair. I’m not actually on lemmy.ml, and my instance sees no real reason to talk ibout hexbear. Their trolling isn’t disruptive to our communities, and is fairly easily filtered
- Erika2rsis ( @Erika2rsis@lemmy.blahaj.zone ) 6•1 year ago
Also, regarding “a material analysis that pig poop balls advances the cause somehow” — basically ever since I first started seeing this sort of stuff coming from Hexbear in the brief time when they federated with Blåhaj Lemmy, I thought of stuff like pig poop balls in kind of the same way as, like, the climate/vegan activists who throw soup cans at paintings or pour milk jugs in stores or trespass F1 races or break fuel pumps or so forth. A lot of people express a lot of anger and frustration and annoyance at these sorts of things and say “How can these activists be so stupid‽ Don’t they know that this hurts support for their cause‽”, but… ehhhh, being goddamn annoying as all Hell is honestly a more effective form of political action than a lot of people consciously believe it to be. The video essayist Ponderful once said about this,
People criticize actions like milk pours and soup…chucks? Because it “gives the right something to criticize”…but it seems like that’s the point! And at the same time, it makes other climate activists look extremely reasonable and “good, actually” in comparison! If pouring some milk on the ground will mean that Daily Mail readers might hear some messages about how messed-up the dairy industry is, and then also maybe even consider old enemies like our Greta as good in comparison, then…yay! Yay, I say! And if it makes the public look kinder upon activists who actually target oil infrastructure, in comparison to what they see as random and annoying publicity stunts, then f*ck!gn ay!
Whether all of this applies in the case of Hexbear is something that people can argue about — it feels like kind of a silly comparison given that Lemmy is just an obscure social media platform, which doesn’t exactly seem like the type of place where meaningful praxis can happen… But it’s at least a thought that we can keep in mind. Hexbear has certainly succeeded in getting people on Lemmy talking and thinking about them and their beliefs, pushing the Overton window leftwards — especially if other, less annoying leftists look “good in comparison”. I’m kind of reminded of my own path towards leftism, honestly: I’d certainly been annoyed by communist interlocutors plenty of times over the years, but I think that without that annoyance, I probably wouldn’t agree with those selfsame interlocutors on so much today. That was just one of the many tactics that collectively led me down that path.
I don’t think that this is necessarily Hexbear’s intentional strategy in the same way as those aforementioned climate/vegan activists, but nevertheless, this is at least my spitball of a material analysis of why Pig Poop Balls actually does advance the cause. This is just a little advocacy for the devil, as it were.
- uniqueid198x ( @uniqueid198x@lemmy.dbzer0.com ) 3•1 year ago
i could certainly see that argument having same weight, but the practical application of it isn’t as a protest, but as a thought ending cliche. PPB is linked when the interlocuter has decided the thread is over, independent of whether they actually had much participation.
I agree, there is certainly a place for confrontational protest, hell, if your protest doesn’t make people upset, then its not working. But as you say, this is lemmy. Its not a good context, in my estimation, for a soup pour, particularly when that soup pour is in defence some pretty controversial stuff. Many will say this is milquetoast waffling, which is probably fair, I guess, but I am here to relax and I don’t find threat of disgust for mistepping someone’s Bizmarkian statist realpolitik to be relaxing.
And, ultimately, I advocate more for a filtering than a complete removal, simply because the discussion is important. There are forums here where conversation is ecouraged, and there ar forums where circle jerk is encouraged, and if the former is done stridently but in good faith, I want it to continue. I personaly don’t need the circle jerk, however.
i do appreciate your analasys, and it does make me view that stuff a little more charitably. I also appreciate your use of the interobang. This open source phone keyboard can’t do that yet, and I feel its a loss.
- mycorrhiza they/them ( @mycorrhiza@lemmy.ml ) 11•1 year ago
.ml domains are named for the country code of Mali, and are used because they are free to register
- CAPSLOCKFTW ( @CAPSLOCKFTW@feddit.de ) 7•1 year ago
ml was most likely chosen because freenom was giving ml (mali) tld away for free.
- PickTheStick ( @PickTheStick@ttrpg.network ) 6•1 year ago
That’s why fmhy chose the .ml, but lemmygrad and lemmy paid for theirs, which is why they can still use it while fmhy.ml went tits up.
- CAPSLOCKFTW ( @CAPSLOCKFTW@feddit.de ) 2•1 year ago
I also pay for a ml domain now, 11$ a year. Used a free one, set up my mail server and some other stuff, now I need that domain because of the mail adresses I and others from my family use. Lemmy.ml has lots of users, it’s the main devs instance after all. I don’t think that the marxist-leninist thingy is the reason for that.
Though I disagree with dessalines political views.
- Erika2rsis ( @Erika2rsis@lemmy.blahaj.zone ) 2•1 year ago
I hadn’t heard of that, but you’re probably right. It’s still mighty coincidental that 3/4 of the admins have Cuban or Soviet historical figures as their profile pictures.
- 𝘋𝘪𝘳𝘬 ( @Dirk@lemmy.ml ) 3•1 year ago
This does not get more true if you guys repeat it over and over again. This is just nonsense.
- JokeDeity ( @JokeDeity@lemm.ee ) 3•1 year ago
I haven’t seen much offensive stuff from Kbin, but the other two are burning dumpsters.
- The Dark Lord ☑️ ( @TheRaven@lemmy.ca ) 11•1 year ago
Right. If I disagree with someone, I downvote. If people are being an asshole, it’s different.
Generally the assholes also think it’s because people just disagree.
Lemmy.world defederating from lemmy.dbzer0.com because it’s instance focuses on discussions about piracy.
Like, how do I keep myself up to date about what is happening in piracy nowadays? It’s my key interest, but yet admins decided to defederate.
As you might already noticed, I created account in lemmy.dbzer0.com, which btw has higher uptime than lemmy.world. Also high five for those ddos kids for bringing lemmy.world down, so people can switch to other instances and spread the load.
- Veraticus ( @Veraticus@lib.lgbt ) English4•1 year ago
You asked a question and answered it next sentence!
Thanks for pointing it out! Really appreciate your effort in explaining my comment to me. Thank you so much!
- guts ( @guts@lemmy.ml ) 1•1 year ago
Even radical left liberals are assholes.
- yukichigai ( @yukichigai@kbin.social ) 138•1 year ago
Yes, let’s enter discussion with the literal Nazis so we can try to understand them. There might be nuance to their calls for mass genocide.
Fuck off OP.
- Enkrod ( @Enkrod@feddit.de ) 15•1 year ago
I’ve been successfully reporting troll-accounts and got them banned, I’ve blocked entire communities (mostly some niche-nsfw communities, so they don’t turn up in my local feed on my lemmynsfw.com-account). And I’ve found most community-moderators reeeeeeaaaaally don’t like fascists on their turf and if you see something and report something, most will get the boot.
This meme presents a false choice, defederation is not the only sane reason to choose (because understanding and/or engaging nazis is decidedly not sane).
Once an entire instance is gone though… defederate like there’s no tomorrow.
- UraniumBlazer ( @UraniumBlazer@lemm.ee ) English2•1 year ago
Right… So thinking that the Tzar’s invasion of Ukraine is unjustified is Nazi shit. Thinking that the Holodomor was a genocide is Nazi shit. Cuz that’s what ur tankie buddies called me. This is what OP was referencing to.
- yukichigai ( @yukichigai@kbin.social ) 6•1 year ago
My dude, just today we had Neo-Nazis berating people outside Disney World about the supremacy of the white race and the need to eliminate all LGBTQ people. “Literal Nazi” isn’t some coded terminology that takes a PhD in Cryptography to decipher. There are no hidden meanings here.
- Norgur ( @Norgur@kbin.social ) 0•1 year ago
HiTlEr WaSn’T aLl BaD
- gullible ( @gullible@kbin.social ) 0•1 year ago
Hitler wasn’t all bad. After all, he did kill Hitler.
- Lvxferre ( @lvxferre@lemmy.ml ) 77•1 year ago
This post assumes that a meaningful amount of defed instances are caused by simple lack of agreement. Often, it’s an orthogonal matter - it boils down to instance A actually understanding something about the userbase of instance B and saying “I’m not dealing with this shit, it’ll make the instance worse for its own users”. For example: the typical user of B might be disingenuous, or preach immoral prescriptions, behave like a chimp, or be a bloody stupid piece of trash that should’ve stayed in Reddit to avoid smearing its stupidity everywhere here.
Are instance admins too eager to pull the trigger for defed? Perhaps, in some cases; specially because it handles groups of users instead of individuals. But those cases are better addressed through actual examples, not through a meme talking on generic grounds.
- trafficnab ( @trafficnab@lemmy.ca ) 25•1 year ago
The cool part is, if your instance admin starts doing stuff you don’t like, you can super easily just go to a different one, or even go about hosting your own that you control and decide who to federate with
- yukichigai ( @yukichigai@kbin.social ) 11•1 year ago
Well, once they fix the whole “each instance copies the media from other instances automatically” thing. I’d love to self-host a vanity instance if I didn’t have to either worry about CSAM or just nuke the entire pict-rs facility via script.
…actually I wonder if that’s an option on kbin. Even if the Mastodon interoperability is a bit wonky right now I like the platform working with both services on ActivityPub (thus why I’m here).
- Lvxferre ( @lvxferre@lemmy.ml ) 4•1 year ago
Yup. As a side effect: admins that are too eager to pull the trigger might get their own users pissed, and they’ll eventually leave. So a successful admin needs to make sure that the defed is the best for his userbase.
Thanks for a cool-headed comment!
- WtfEvenIsExistence ( @WtfEvenIsExistence@lemmy.ca ) English55•1 year ago
“You should try to understand the other side”
The other side: “HUNTER BIDEN LAPTOP JEWISH SPACE LASER CLIMATE HOAX DEMOCRAT RIGGED ELECTION DEEP STATE ILLUMINATI FLAT EARTH NASA NASA FAKE MOON”
No thanks lol
- GBU_28 ( @GBU_28@lemm.ee ) English23•1 year ago
I want my experience to be free of that shit, as well as “look at this cute picture of Stalin being a silly boy, hehe”
- randint ( @randint@lemm.ee ) 2•1 year ago
laptop?
- randint ( @randint@lemm.ee ) 4•1 year ago
Ah I see, thanks.
- ThePac ( @ThePac@lemmy.ml ) English52•1 year ago
What a simple, stupid argument.
- Album ( @Album@lemmy.ca ) 16•1 year ago
Welcome to memes@Lemmy.ml
- body_by_make ( @Cqrd@lemmy.dbzer0.com ) 13•1 year ago
You can’t enter a discussion with somebody who’s just trying to bombard you into submission. OP is wildly ignorant or just somebody sad they’re being defederated on a different account.
Yeah op’s a fuckin moron to an extreme level
- VCTRN ( @victron@programming.dev ) English36•1 year ago
Yeah, let’s try to understand child abuse images /s
- June ( @June@lemm.ee ) 32•1 year ago
Let’s find the middle ground with Nazi’s too!
- setVeryLoud(true); ( @isVeryLoud@lemmy.ca ) 17•1 year ago
I want to stab you in the back 8 times, you don’t want to be stabbed at all.
Let’s compromise and I stab you 4 times.
- SpaceCowboy ( @SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca ) 6•1 year ago
We can surely work a way to achieve peace for our time!
- ArcaneSlime ( @ArcaneSlime@lemmy.dbzer0.com ) 4•1 year ago
Yeah! They put on a red shirt, that means they’re cool!
- IHeartBadCode ( @IHeartBadCode@kbin.social ) 36•1 year ago
I was there OP, I was there 3000 years ago before the great renaming, long before the eternal September. Fuck those bitches, defederate and be done with them. Assholes are eternally assholes and giving them an inch is just inviting them to take a mile.
- ryannathans ( @ryannathans@lemmy.fmhy.net ) 35•1 year ago
Only lemmy could make a post about disagreeing with someone’s view point about child porn
- shitescalates ( @shitescalates@midwest.social ) English19•1 year ago
I’m guessing its about tankies
- Comment105 ( @Comment105@lemm.ee ) 36•1 year ago
So many tankies on here, flat out support for the invasion of Ukraine, claiming that the west is less free than China, shitting on democracy/voting… So much shit.
- BitPirate ( @BitPirate@feddit.de ) 20•1 year ago
You forgot that every discussion about Ukraine/Russia is steered towards talking about US imperialism.
- FaeDrifter ( @FaeDrifter@midwest.social ) English13•1 year ago
One guy just kept posting a link to the Wikipedia page on American imperialism over and over in his comments.
Talk about a one track mind.
- ArxCyberwolf ( @Snowpix@lemmy.ca ) 5•1 year ago
Well clearly if you didn’t read my random Wikipedia article the first time then clearly you will by the tenth, right?
- Saizaku ( @Saizaku@lemmy.dbzer0.com ) 6•1 year ago
Yeah I wonder why, maybe it’s because they are directly responsible for the current war. Maybe the US should stop arming extreme right wing groups whenever they want to destabilize a region like they did in Afghanistan and Iraq and in Ukraine prior to the war. Nato is proudly posting images of soldiers with the black sun on their uniforms on twitter but I guess that’s completely irrelevant.
- BitPirate ( @BitPirate@feddit.de ) 13•1 year ago
maybe it’s because they are directly responsible for the current war.
“oh look what you made me do.”
- ArxCyberwolf ( @Snowpix@lemmy.ca ) 8•1 year ago
Ukraine is a sovereign country and Russia has no claim to it. Defending Ukraine is the right thing to do and that’s not debatable. Saving innocent lives and preventing further genocide is a good thing. I don’t see why these fucking idiots have to gargle Putin’s balls so much. Yes, America bad. We know. That’s a problem for later. Right now children are being murdered by Russia. That’s far more important to stop right now.
- Dubious_Fart ( @Dubious_Fart@lemmy.ml ) English8•1 year ago
Tankies: omg desu putins cock is so kawaii uwu big mean imperial western devils make my puty cock all wilty uwuu~~
- Trainguyrom ( @Trainguyrom@reddthat.com ) English4•1 year ago
If it’s the defederation BS I’m thinking of it was regarding a specific model for whom they’d already age verified and the one instance admin was simply still not okay with it because they looked too young. Which like, that’s their choice as an instance admin, but also that’s a pretty kneejerk reaction to defederate and immediately announce the defederation
… that was from over a month ago. Doubt it. Also I’m not sure that anyone has enough info to know if it was a bad call or not but it was not very recent considering how many defederations have been discussed since.
- paperemail ( @paperemail@links.rocks ) English34•1 year ago
- Mouette ( @Mouette@jlai.lu ) 34•1 year ago
If the ‘thing you dont agree’ with is hate speech or shit promotting violence for example that’s the only sane option you have lol
- corsicanguppy ( @corsicanguppy@lemmy.ca ) 7•1 year ago
Yes. Tolerance should not extend to intolerance, and intolerance should never be a thing we tolerate.
- letsgocrazy ( @letsgocrazy@lemm.ee ) 3•1 year ago
If it were that simple, then it would be fine.
But the point is, people just start to label anything that whiffs of a different opinion as “intolerance”.
- shiveyarbles ( @shiveyarbles@beehaw.org ) 31•1 year ago
Fascists and child porn spammers may have rights somewhere, but not in my world.
- Phoenixz ( @phoenixz@lemmy.ca ) 5•1 year ago
True but.
It reminds me of this discussion I had on Reddit with a person who said it was okay to punch a Nazi, just like that. Walk up to them l, punch.
I start with that Nazi’s don’t really exist, and if someone has intolerant ideas them maybe it’s better to talk them out of those ideas instead of reinforcing them.
This discussion took a few messages until it ended with this person calling me a Nazi and threateni to punch me if he ever saw me, just and only because o disagreed with unjustified violence against intolerant people
This person was just as intolerant as a Nazi themselves and didn’t even realize it.
- Muehe ( @Muehe@lemmy.ml ) 20•1 year ago
This person was just as intolerant as a Nazi themselves and didn’t even realize it.
No they weren’t, this is what Popper defines as intolerance of the second degree. Taken from the German wiki page because this aspect is better explained there than in the English version (translated with deepl):
In intolerant people, Popper distinguished two categories:
-
intolerance of the first degree: intolerant of a person’s customs because they are foreign.
-
intolerance of the second degree: intolerant of a person’s customs because they are intolerant and dangerous.
Popper therefore rejected universal tolerance:
“Less well known is the paradox of tolerance: unrestricted tolerance leads with necessity to the disappearance of tolerance. For if we extend unrestricted tolerance even to the intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant social order against the onslaughts of intolerance, then the tolerant will be destroyed and tolerance with them.”
However, since we as human beings are not capable of knowing the true motives of our counterparts, a fundamental, unsolvable problem now arises: It is difficult for an outsider to distinguish whether a person who expresses intolerance belongs to the first or second degree.
In other words the intolerance against Nazis is justified because they are the ones being intolerant in the first place, and sometimes this is the only way to fight them on that.
I’ll grant that this is disregarding your premise of Nazis not existing, but to be quite honest if I may, that’s a pretty stupid premise. The Nazis did exist, they were the poster child for intolerance of the first degree, and their ideology is far from being as dead as they are.
- Phoenixz ( @phoenixz@lemmy.ca ) 3•1 year ago
I get your point and Im not saying we should simply allow neo-Nazi’s to say and do what they want. I’m saying that assaulting them without any other reason but then “being” a neo-Nazi is bad.
First off, people saying “punch a Nazi!” are the same kind of people nthst happily call you a Nazi the second you disagree with them on anything. So with that, their “punch a Nazi” actually means “punch anybody disagreeing with me”. People like that are closer to neo-Nazi’s than they think, chekc horseshoe theory.
Second: I’d rather talk and reason with someone who is full of hate than pushing then further and deeper into their hatred. These people will still be around tomorrow. They’ll still be in our stores, or schools, our bars… I want these people to hate lessz not more the vast majority of them are just followers going with shit they got from Facebook, some personal bad experiences, shit they learned from their parents, etc. It’s not easy to talk with them, make them understand that hey have warped view of the world, but if at the end of the conversation they see even a tiny about of light, it was worth it.
Third: I’ve talked with too many people saying anything like “punch a Nazi” who then went on to claim that I was a Nazi bevaut I disagreed with them. It’s kind of point one but it bares repeating: violence is bad.
- Muehe ( @Muehe@lemmy.ml ) 7•1 year ago
I agree that attempts at enlightenment should always be the default option. Not least because of the passage I purposely quoted along, that separating first and second degree of intolerance is an intractable problem.
I get your point that being called a Nazi while you are not isn’t fun. This rhetorical move is known as a “Totschlagargument” in Germany by the way (literally translated: manslaughter argument, i.e. it kills discussion). Maybe don’t throw out the baby with the bathwater though, and keep your only way of effectively resisting against them, abhorrent though it may be.
Case in point…
the vast majority of them are just followers going with shit they got from Facebook, some personal bad experiences, shit they learned from their parents, etc. It’s not easy to talk with them, make them understand that hey have warped view of the world
These sentences are literally applicable to historical Nazis, just replace Facebook with pamphlets and radio. And this is the sense in which I mean that their ideology is far from dead, there are plenty of people that espouse fascism in general or Nazism (as in national socialism) specifically today. They all have their subjective reasons and none of them matter in the end, because their conclusion is fascism, an inherently inhumane ideology.
make them understand that hey have warped view of the world, but if at the end of the conversation they see even a tiny about of light, it was worth it.
So what if they don’t, if they remain blind in the face of the light that is humanism? If they remain intolerant even after being confronted with the error of their ways? I’d argue, and you would seem to agree, that violence is the only real option left in that case, because the other option is surrendering society to them and their misguided ideology. These people can vote, Hitler was elected by people such as this. Some of them are in positions of power right now.
So to extend your conclusion: Violence is bad, but it is also necessary sometimes. As a last resort, yes, but still.
Veering off to what you said earlier and expanded on in a sibling comment:
Nazi’s don’t exist. They haven’t existed for about 80 years now. What do exist are people with varying degrees of being a racist cunt.
Sorry, but this is just wrong. Denazification in Germany stopped pretty much with the upper echelons being brought to justice in the Nuremberg trials. Both German states had a metric shit-ton of actual Nazi war criminals in their administration, because they needed administrators due to the cold war shifting geopolitical priorities, and they had to use the ones available. There was a criminal trial against a former concentration camp secretary happening last year (because there is no statute of limitations on genocide, she was 17 at the time apparently), although given her age and health it might indeed have been the last one of those. But over the decades the career of quite a lot of high-ranking German officials stumbled upon their past as Nazis, on either side of the iron curtain. They weren’t magically exterminated on victory day, quite the opposite actually, many found their way into the power structures of the victors, sometimes poisoning them from within.
And there are literal Nazis in the current generations too, here in Germany as well as abroad. People who espouse Mein Kampf and all that kind of shit. Who say Hitler was right. Granted, the general movement mostly mutated into a white supremacy idea rather than the “Arian” (i.e. German) people being the master race, so maybe not all of them are Nazis in the strictest sense of the word, “Nazi Classic” if you will; But the ideology is there, it’s fascist, and many of them worship actual fucking Nazis and follow their ideals.
And while all of those people already deserve to be fucking punched just by virtue of being whatever somewhat coherent definition of Nazi you may apply, for many of them it’s also the only recourse you have, because words will simply not convince them.
So in conclusion “punch a Nazi” is a valid statement of political discourse in my opinion, as long as it uses an appropriate definition of what a Nazi is (i.e. a fascist, racist, national socialist, etc. pp.). Notwithstanding the fact that you were apparently mislabelled as one in some online discussion.
- Phoenixz ( @phoenixz@lemmy.ca ) 1•1 year ago
Okay, thoughtful argument but still…
Who gets to decide when to use violence then? For what reason? When is it okay and when is it not? What is the line? And aren’t you sweet talking vigilantism here? Because you are.
We both literally are saying that violence is okay in certain cases. I say it’s okay when someone attacks me. I defend myself with violence because there literally is no other option.
You say it’s okay when people have opinions that you disagree with. Granted, those options are really very shitty opinions, but they’re that: opinions. This person you’ll be punching hasn’t hit you, hasn’t attacked you. He said or displayed things you don’t like.
So where is the line? You can punch him if he displays a swastika? How about me displayjng a swastika, you punch me and oops, it’s a religious symbol from India…
Who gets to decide who to punch? WHO?
this is why we have a legal system and this is why we don’t live in an anarchy. We live in a civilized society.
You. Do. Not. Punch. People. It doesn’t matter if they got shit opinions or not.
Lastly, if you still disagree, then go out and punch a Neo Nazi. Heck, kill one, must feel good!
Then you get arrested and a judge (and depending on the country, jury of your peers) will throw your ass in jail because you are a criminal.
Congrats, you made a neo nazi a victim and yourself a criminal.
- Muehe ( @Muehe@lemmy.ml ) 1•1 year ago
Okay, thoughtful argument but still…
Well thanks, however this compliment seems a bit like a poisoned chalice considering the rest of your replies.
Who gets to decide when to use violence then? For what reason? When is it okay and when is it not? What is the line?
We have been through this, the line is that it has to be a last resort. FYI, this concept is literally enshrined in our constitution:
Article 20
[…]
(4) All Germans shall have the right to resist any person seeking to abolish this constitutional order if no other remedy is available.You say it’s okay when people have opinions that you disagree with. Granted, those options are really very shitty opinions, but they’re that: opinions. This person you’ll be punching hasn’t hit you, hasn’t attacked you. He said or displayed things you don’t like.
No, I say it’s okay when people have opinions that are a clear and present danger to a tolerant society. Again, we have been over this, it’s know as the paradox of tolerance. What these people do is attack civil society by abusing its rules, and you seem to propose we let them without keeping violence as a last resort, except for immediate self-defence of your person. Saying for example that all Jews or Muslims should be killed or that refugees deserve no asylum is technically an opinion, but it is also an attack on human rights and civil society. And you should stand up to that, if you deem it necessary with violence.
And yes, answering intolerance with intolerance seems like circular logic, because it is. That’s why it’s called a paradox. But IMHO you should consider that we are talking about something where our language, also a system of circular logic by the way, breaks down.
So where is the line? You can punch him if he displays a swastika?
Well this one is easy in Germany at least, because it’s literally illegal. I’ll report them to police and they will get up to three years in prison for it pursuant to § 86a of the criminal code (display of anti-constitutional symbols).
How about me displayjng a swastika, you punch me and oops, it’s a religious symbol from India…
Those are usually turned the other way and not displayed at a 45° angle. Nazi iconography is in most cases clearly distinguishable from Hindu and Shinto iconography, and if it’s not you can ask first. I will say however that when you claim to display an Asian religious symbol while being white, having a shaved head, wearing a bomber jacket and jump boots, I’m not inclined to believe you.
Doesn’t matter for my locale though, people here usually chose to just not display it outside of temples to avoid this obvious misunderstanding.
Who gets to decide who to punch? WHO?
The one doing the punching. If it was justified will be decided by the courts, as you said. And yeah, unless you have a very good reason you will probably be convicted of assault, since the state claims a monopoly on violence. However some would argue, including me, that sometimes the only way to defend the existence of civil society lies outside its rules. It’s called civil disobedience.
Nazi’s exist as much as roman legionaries exist. The Roman Empire is gone and so is Nazi Germany. That somebody would love to be one is a different thing. I’d love to be a samurai but those too no longer exists. Slapping a label on it doesn’t change that. I can dress up and play one but that’s not the same. There are neo-Nazi’s out there for sure, wannabees. There are no Nazi’s.
Yeah ok, first off the time frame and circumstances are a little different here. The Roman Empire and the samurai caste have been gone a bit longer than Nazi Germany. Every single member of those organisations is long dead. This is not the case for Nazis, and they had ample opportunity to pass on their ideology to later generations, which they did. There aren’t, to my knowledge, any large groups of people self-identifying as Roman legionaries or samurai, except for LARPing purposes. There are however a lot of them seriously self-identifying as Nazis. I don’t see what you or I would gain by denying that they are.
Secondly, to classify them as neo-Nazis instead of actual Nazis, and maintaining that there is a relevant difference in that regarding their level of intolerance towards other groups is bonkers. In context, i.e. whether they present a clear and present danger to civil society, it’s a distinction without a difference. And if you want to hold on to this ridiculous premise this entire discussion is kind of pointless.
You seem to be of the persuasion that liberal democracies aren’t endangered by fascism or other forms of totalitarianism anymore, I fail to see why that would be the case. On the contrary, history teaches us that this is a constant danger. There is a reason the principle of defensive democracy was made into law by a lot of nations after the second world war.
Stop with the dumb slogans. Everybody knows that Nazi’s were bad and “punch a Nazi” only leads to assholes calling others they don’t like Nazi’s.
It also leads to Nazis being punched. I don’t think we will reach agreement on this, so thanks for the - mostly - respectful discussion. At the risk of being accused of using dumb slogans again, I’ll leave you with a quote from a German pastor who was put into the concentration camps for his believes:
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
— Martin Niemöller
- Phoenixz ( @phoenixz@lemmy.ca ) 1•1 year ago
Nazi’s exist as much as roman legionaries exist. The Roman Empire is gone and so is Nazi Germany. That somebody would love to be one is a different thing. I’d love to be a samurai but those too no longer exists. Slapping a label on it doesn’t change that. I can dress up and play one but that’s not the same. There are neo-Nazi’s out there for sure, wannabees. There are no Nazi’s.
Having said that.
I’ve spend quite some time arguing with people that punching a Nazi is bad for a long list of reasons. I suddenly get the idea that I’d love to see any of you walk up to a group of neo Nazi’s and punch one of them. Let’s see if you still think it’s such a get idea. I feel like a lot of you are armchair heroes, sorry.
But to the point: we live in a civil society. We have a justice system. You punch a Neo Nazi and it’s assault and battery and depending on injuries you likely will go to jail. Congrats, you made a neo nazi a victim and yourself a violent criminal. Great work.
Stop with the dumb slogans. Everybody knows that Nazi’s were bad and “punch a Nazi” only leads to assholes calling others they don’t like Nazi’s.
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- mrpants ( @mrpants@midwest.social ) English18•1 year ago
You ever convert a Nazi with words? You certainly haven’t convinced me that a Nazi puncher and a Nazi are the same.
- Phoenixz ( @phoenixz@lemmy.ca ) 1•1 year ago
Nazi’s don’t exist. They haven’t existed for about 80 years now. What do exist are people with varying degrees of being a racist cunt.
Yu can either piss them off and push them deeper or talk with them and pull them out. Even if you only pull them up a little, it’s an improvement
These people are still going to be here. You punch them, what does it solve? Tomorrow he or she is still out there, probably even more angry and convinced they’re right.
I know that reasoning is much, much harder to do but it’s also much more rewarding.
Also, just don’t be a dick. If you punch someone simply for saying that he likes what Nazi’s did you’re literally the wrong one. He’s using stupid words, you’re being violent. Any judge will throw your ass in jail, not the wannabe Nazi, and he’d be right.
Again, we still need to love with these people. They’re still in your streets, in our stores, in our bars, in our schools. Do you want to push them further and further until they break, or do you want them to understand and learn and get better?
- tryptaminev 🇵🇸 🇺🇦 🇪🇺 ( @tryptaminev@feddit.de ) 5•1 year ago
Risking to fall for a troll here… Nazis very much exist. There might be the term neonazis to distinguish them, but lets face it. The neonazis are identical in their ideology, political means (threats, violence, murder), demeanor and even in appeal they try to be as close to the original as possible.
For the second part. Do you think a Nazi will discuss openly with you? No they would murder you in place, if you dont follow their ideology, or heck even if they just think you looked at them funny. Giving them space in public and letting them influence public space is affirming their positions and supporting their means to influence society. That is where the “punch a Nazi” is coming from. They need to be denied public space and public power. That is also where some realise they are not in the right, because the public is not agreeing with them and not secretly supporting them, which is a cornerstone of their belief system.
- Muehe ( @Muehe@lemmy.ml ) 2•1 year ago
Nur zur Info, du kannst auf Lemmy Bilder direkt einbinden mit folgender Markdown-Syntax:
![Alternativtext für Screenreader und so](https://link.zum/bild.jpg)
Man beachte das
!
vorne vor dem[]()
, sonst wird es nur als Link mit Text statt Adresse angezeigt. - Phoenixz ( @phoenixz@lemmy.ca ) 1•1 year ago
Not a troll, and thank you for your comment.
Let me try to clarify a few of my points.
First off, what is the point? What is it that you’re trying to do with assault? And it IS assault and battery if you “punch a Nazi”. I’m obviously not talking about self defense after you were attacked, I’m talking about you taking initiative. What is your goal? Revenge? Killing him? Getting rid of the enemy?
Then I have a problem with “punch a Nazi” because I’m against violence unless there is no other choice. You either defend yourself against direct and literal violence or you don’t use violence.
Then I have a problem with punch a Nazi because way too many people say that, and in the same breath will continue with calling you a Nazi because you disagree with them. People like that are just as scary as those that literally would want to be a Nazi.
Then there is the Nazi thing. Just like there are no samurai and Roman legionaries anymore, there aren’t any Nazi’s anymore. There are neo-Nazi’s, wannabees, but Nazi’s don’t exist anymore. Words matter.
Then there is the thing that these neo-Nazi groups, like all similar groups, have a few scary leaders and mostly disillusioned followers. These are mostly people that are angry or disillusioned with whatever and many times are one or two conversations away from “seeing light”. They may say a lot of shit but really aren’t that deep in there. Punching them might actually work counter productive and just push them further down a bad path.
Then finally there is the point that if we want to live in a just society, that we need to use the justice system, not a vigilante system. Again, if you’re playing judge jury and executioner yourself then you’re possibly worse than them.
Then finally there is the point that if you “punch a Nazi” YOU are committing assault and battery, not “the Nazi” and a judge and jury of your peers will toss your sorry ass on jail, not “the Nazi”. You would put you as the bad guy, making a neo nazi the good guy. Don’t make neonnazis the good guy.
So no, I’m not trolling here, I’m dead serious. “Punch a Nazi” is a bad thing for a long list of reasons, just don’t do it.
No they would murder you in place, if you dont follow their ideology, or heck even if they just think you looked at them funny.
I think you have a rather warped image of reality. Sure, there are a few very disturbing types out there, but they don’t need neonnazis idioligy to murder you. Most neo-Nazi’s are a lot of bark, very little bite. They’re guys who also have families at home who (kinda like you) have a warped sense of reality and they’d be much more helped with a dose of reality and reason than violence…
- peanutdust ( @peanutdust@lemm.ee ) 4•1 year ago
I don’t think people know what fascist means in this thread.
- ScrivenerX ( @ScrivenerX@lemm.ee ) 29•1 year ago
Funny how one instance is the one everyone wants to defederate from.
- BigNote ( @BigNote@lemm.ee ) 14•1 year ago
When everyone you meet is an asshole, you are probably the real asshole.
Funny how this works with social media as well.
- Schadrach ( @Schadrach@lemmy.sdf.org ) 13•1 year ago
Currently. Of course in the past it was exploding heads for being Nazis, Lemmygrad for being insufferable tankies, then Burggit for lolicon, now hexbear for being insufferable tankies.
- randint ( @randint@lemm.ee ) 5•1 year ago
Heck I think Lemmygrad is more tolerable than Hexbear, by a lot.
- AlwaysNowNeverNotMe ( @AlwaysNowNeverNotMe@kbin.social ) 24•1 year ago
Whew !memes sure does have a lot of faciest apologia.
- Gormadt ( @Gormadt@lemmy.blahaj.zone ) 7•1 year ago
Trust me there’s a lot worse instances for it out there
Lemmygrad and Hexbear come immediately to mind
- JokeDeity ( @JokeDeity@lemm.ee ) 24•1 year ago
Go back to whichever 14 year old infested, fake communist, edgelord hideout you crawled out of.
- dangblingus ( @dangblingus@lemmy.dbzer0.com ) 23•1 year ago
Many instances have shit like hexbear federated, but have explicit rules on the side saying “no tankie shit”. make it make sense.