Most of the criticisms that come from the right are solvable problems, such as lack of chargers, electricity coming from dirty sources, or lithium mining. We pretty much know how to solve all those at this point. Just a matter of doing it.
Criticisms that come from the left tend to be more fundamental. Things like car-based cities being too spread out, infrastructure costs spiraling out of control, or having the average person operate a 2 ton vehicle at speeds over 60mph and expecting this to be safe. None of those are specific to EVs, and are only solvable by looking at different transportation options.
But solving problems costs money! We need to be transferring those dollars to our wealthy donors, not spending them on public improvements!
Or just be me, WFH and never leave the house
If only employers cared. It has been nice, now my employer is rolling out a arbitrary but mandatory 4 days return to office policy. In like 8 years of employment I never needed to be there that much. Whatever, 100% remote job market looks decent for me, hopefully find a better place soon.
I mean, you still need to leave the house for groceries and other stuff
People don’t want to change the status quo or inconvenience themselves slightly in any way for the greater good. People want a magic drop in replacement that magically “fixes/solves” the environmental crisis and allows life to continue on as is. (So they don’t have to take “yucky” public transit)
What really needs to be known though is life has to somewhat drastically change so we can make the world a healthier place for generations to come in the future.
You’re being downvoted because you’re right. I’ve had people argue that EVs still aren’t a good alternative because they may require a bit more effort every once in a while. Like, charging for 30 minutes at a charger on a long road trip vs just gassing up. Other than that they are pretty much a drop in alternative and people still balk at them.
Then trying to get them to use public transit instead? Doesn’t even matter if it’s more convenient, they’re stuck in their ways and will refuse to change ever.
Get out of your ruts people. Just because “this is the way things are” doesn’t mean it’s the best way. Ffs the amount of midwesterners who come to my city to visit and think we’re being “unsafe” by using the train, just get out of your mindsets.
get out of your ruts
But thinking critically is hard and I’m lazy!
I tell people yes do get an EV for your next car. But also use this chance to really think about if you need the car at all. Or does every adult in the household need a car each. Our city is trash for everyone having to own a car.
Best is to run your car to the ground. Then get an EV if you must own a car.
Unfortunately mass transit that works for everyone is the enemy of vehicle manufacturers.
And the rich. They need to differentiate themselves somehow from the poor
Optional first class for higher price could be used for this.
That’s a good idea
If I could guarantee that my job is remote forever, or have it written in my contract, I would sell my car.
I live a short bike ride away from the shops. I have some side bags for the ebike I built so lugging groceries isn’t too much of an issue.
The biggest shift is learning you wouldn’t shop the same way you do with a car. With a car you go to a big supermarket and load up a trolley. Spend over a hundred for a week’s worth and drive home. With a bike you kinda just buy as needed for the next couple days. You do more trips throughout the week which is kinda nice too. Forces you to get out of the house more. Benefit I realised when doing this was vegetables were less likely to just die out in the fridge since I bought as needed. Which meant I spent a little less overall.
Do you have access to food, stores, etc using public transport? How do you go about buying stuff and bringing it back home?
I’m entertained by the fact that everyone gets hung up on how EVs are still not totally green because the electricity comes from coal fired plants or that there’s still manufacturing emissions and stuff…
It’s like, yeah, but compared to an ICE car, which has all the same problems (environmental cost of manufacturing the vehicle, mining and refining the fuel, transporting it, etc) but EVs don’t actively pollute nearly as much during use, and they speak as if these are of equal environmental cost, and they’re not. Additionally, ICE vehicles need a lot more oil to operate that needs to be changed and disposed of every few thousand miles.
It’s like doing less harm isn’t valuable to the people arguing against it, but then again, those are probably the same people who drive their V8 truck to get groceries.
Plus there are plenty of people, like myself, who live in areas where the electricity comes from mostly renewable sources.
Me too. I’m pretty well surrounded by nuclear and hydro-electric here in southern Ontario.
A yes, renewable nuclear energy.
Somewhat renewable through breeder reactors.
Still, nuclear energy has a very good carbon footprint (unlike coal plants) and the public image of them being polluters was a joint disinformation project by Greenpeace and the oil companies in the early 2000s. Greenpeace backpedaled hard on their stance in the recent years.
Also, charging from the electrical grid means EV’s immediately get future improvements in CO2 usage when the grid improves its mix of power sources.
They will continue to astroturf any and all arguments no matter how stupid to see what sticks. We must continue to refute these idiotic claims and progress towards cleaner air
Environmental impact is still less than ICE, yes, but until we figure out a better way to process lithium and make batteries last longer hybrids still have a smaller environmental impact over the lifetime of the vehicle. Eventually we need to cut out petrol entirety of course, but until we get clean batteries the better short-term solution is hybrids when a vehicle is strictly necessary, and bikes or waking in all other cases. An electric motorcycle might be a good short-term solution too, but as of now battery manufacturing is unacceptably dirty. But as you said, it’s still better than ICE. I just think hybrid would be better as a transition while the technology is improved.
Actually hybrid cars aren’t more green than electric cars. As much as electric cars aren’t perfect, they are by far the greenest option. Don’t trust oil lobbies :)
I agree that battery tech needs to be better. We also need to put in the work now to improve the grid so that when there’s wide scale adoption, the grid won’t collapse under the strain.
For the most part it’s a transit issue… we simply cannot move that many watts of power.
For the rest of it, and hybrids versus full electric vs bikes vs walking, that’s a much larger discussion, since not everyone will be able to adopt something more green than a highly efficient vehicle (whether hybrid or EV or otherwise)…
My main point is that they’ll argue dumb crap like manufacturing, that causes so much pollution, and say it in a way that almost seems like they think that ICE cars are better for that, somehow?
It’s like, we know it’s not “carbon neutral” or whatever… it’s just carbon massively reduced and that’s the point Carl.
It also moves most of the population that is produced away from where people live and so out of their lungs.
That argument will be thrown at every god damn step we make towards a better planet. It’s not valid.
The problem is that the real way to cut down on emissions would be to accept that not every good can be available at any time and that’s a bitter pill to swallow.
We have tuna caught in South America, hauled to Thailand for canning and hauled back to the US to be sold. Turns more profit than local catches because the megacorporations can save a couple bucks on worker salaries. And that is just an example, it’s not just the food industry, hauling shit to hell and back and back to hell and back is common practice.
Doesn’t even have to be unavailable at times. They could can it in north America if they wanted to. Outsourcing jobs (read: exploiting foreign countries and their workers) should be heavily taxed if not banned in most industries
You mean exploiting, right? :)
Yes. Auto correct haha
It would be great if our public transit system in the US was funded enough to actually be useful for more than just occasional, highly specific trips.
Came to say the same. Where I live (Bay Area), we have a train system that works great if you are in a supported area. If not, I don’t imagine the bus system is very convenient. I want something like the NYC subway system. I want it to be inconvenient to drive, compared to regular trains. I’d never drive to San Francisco because it’s a hassle. I want all destinations to be like this (by making the alternative more attractive, not by making driving worse).
I don’t understand how hydrogen didn’t win the race. Transports and explodes just like gasoline. Make car go fast. Doesn’t degrade like lithium. Can be “mined” by throwing electricity at water during times of excess generation by renewables. When you burn it, it turns into water. Has none of the national security concerns of distribution of lithium mining and production in other countries.
Hydrogen for cars is a nonsense. It is so inefficient. Unless you are making it from oil, which why the oil companies are pushing it, you lose loads of energy making it. Then it has to storages and transported, which is hard. Then the car use of it is inefficient too.
So ignoring the oil industries’ “blue hydrogen”, and looking only at “green hydrogen”, you are looking at about 22% of the energy generated ending up pushing the car forward! With an EV it is about 73%. So hydrogen car are over 3 times more expensive to run.
Plus you can just plug in an EV anywhere. With an EV, if need be, you can charge, slowly, off a normal home socket. Of course, normally, you fit faster charging at home.
Hydrogen cars is lie pushed by big oil.
To be fair, i think it may have some use for fleet vehicles like taxis and long range buses because these are applications where being able to refill in minutes at a fuel depo you already run actually matters as compared to the stress you would put on a large battery fast charging day in day out. I also believe that Japan has a nuclear plant that is being built with the capacity to efficacy generate hydrogen directly. That being said, for personal vehicles I can’t really see the market of people who need that fast of a refil being large enough to reach the economies of scale necessary to be practical.
Afaik it has a higher energy density than common batteries, so it could be useful in things like aviation where this is the main concern and you can build special infrastructure to support it.
The frustrating thing is that a car running on hydrogen works really well, has a pretty long range and can be refueled quickly, so it looks like a good alternative. It’s only when you ask how that hydrogen was made and how it arrived at the refueling station that things start to fall appart.
What about hydrogen fuel cells? They got 79% efficiency and can replace batteries of EVs right?
Yes, but turning electricity into hydrogen doesn’t have 100% efficiency, during transport, storage and filling the car with hydrogen you lose some of it and only then you get to the fuel cell, which isn’t very efficient in itself. And then you lose a bit more (although very little) in the electric motor. All this amounts to the 22% of the guy above (didn’t check the number btw, but it sounds plausible)
and can replace batteries of EVs right?
Toyota bet on this and it didn’t go anywhere in the US. They’re pivoting to battery EVs.
Even countries that invested heavily in hydrogen are pulling back - like Denmark eliminating all hydrogen stations. https://energywatch.com/EnergyNews/Renewables/article16432608.ece
Hydrogen currently doesn’t produce, store or transport well. This means it is not as economical as gasoline.
Not really a fan of lithium batts either. We’re going to end up with some environmental problems down the line but its the most economically viable tech we have at present if we’re intending on living the way we currently live.
You need green energy to produce climate friendly hydrogen. This is a LOT more inefficient than to just use that green energy directly in EVs. Thus green hydrogen is also expensive and most importantly it is needed in the industry. It’s the same with e-fuels.
As I understand it, the big issue is energy density? A tank of gasoline takes you quite far compared to an equivalent tank of hydrogen.
And don’t get me wrong, lithium batteries are super bad at this too, but I do think that has been a limiting factor for H cars.
And then there’s the whole tire dust issue which is definitely a conversation worth having.
Because right now we don’t have that much excess energy… Therefore it’s just a waste of energy to use it, because it is way less efficient. AND on top of it an hydrogen car also needs a battery just a smaller one. So it has all the downsides without any upsides. The only upside is that you can recharge your car faster and it has some more range. But both those things don’t matter for the average consumer
It makes sense for long haul trucking and aviation vs batteries, at least for now, but it doesn’t scale well for most common consumer vehicles. Any hydrogen vehicle needs to be a hybrid because there isn’t the fine tune fuel ratio control you get on traditional gasoline.
probably because of infrastructure. electric charging stations were one of the first around and if you ask a new car buyer to choose between two renewable fuel sources, they’ll chose the one with the most stations. In the US at lease, hydrogen stations have always been few and far between, and often quite pricey.
Public transport is awesome…
It just doesnt always go where everyone needs to go
Bikes are great right until you have to do large grocery shopping or get to a place far away.
I cant do without a car where i live.
You live in a place designed around cars, that’s the problem. Society worked fine without cars for a good long while. We could have adopted trains, bikes, and buses without the car and things would be going swimmingly. The idea is to fix our bad town planning so that it’s reasonable to get to any destination using any mode if transportation.
You live in a place designed around cars, that’s the problem.
Exactly. Then Europeans downvote people who say they need a car, because their country/city/state/whatever has terrible planning or public transit.
Not my fault I need a car. Stop blaming me. I didn’t design the city. I didn’t plan where the public transit will go.
Do you really think I love paying $1200+ per year for insurance, $120+ per week for fuel, and $20,000-80,000 for a new vehicle when mine borks itself?
Nobody is blaming the American people. It’s the car corporations that bought and dismantled light rail and train systems and lobbied the government to build cities around the car.
And now the American people are so brainwashed into thinking owning a car is freedom and public transit is “socialism” that they will fight tooth and nail against anything that is against their “freedom” to be forced to own and pay for a car.
Bikes also aren’t great for snow, heavy rain, or extreme temperatures.
Bikes are better than cars in snow, however. A fat bike’s tires ‘float’ across the surface of the snow, like snowshoes, and can handle any snow depth. Regular mountain bikes and commuter bikes with knobby tires handle a few inches of snow quite well, because the knobs capture snow between them, and snow sticks to snow. Cars, on the other hand, need a vast expenditure of effort to plow the snow off the road surface, so they don’t slide around in a few inches of snow, or get stuck in deeper snow.
And then there’s the salt, which destroys the cars…
There’s no bad weather, only bad clothing
Man I was gonna type something about how it’s because your city is designed around car centric infrastructure and density and cargo bikes and shit but honestly there ain’t no way I’m gonna say anything to you that hasn’t already been said.
I think there’s this misconception that the US is basically NYC or dirt-road farmland, and the reality is that there’s a lot of in-between. I live <20 minutes from the closest mall by car, yet even transportation or food delivery apps (e.g. uber, uber eats) essentially don’t serve my area, so forget public transportation.
Tis the problem of car centric sprawl no?
It can depend. Sometimes sprawl is car-centric because it’s heavily developed with no alternative, but sometimes there’a a lot of undeveloped land in between things.
Imagine if all the posting just to shit on biking and public transit just rode a bike or something instead of sucking on a tailpipe for dear fucking life.
Blocking anybody who has to argue in bad faith, I have better things to do with my time then listen to your disengenuous bullshit.
And gas prices would drop
Imagine if people understood that not everyone lives where they can ride a bike or take public transit.
Stop blaming people for being born into a country that essentially requires cars.
Imagine if people who said “We CaNt JuSt TeAr DoWn CaR iNfRaStRuCtUrE fOr TrAnSiT” understood that’s EXACTLY what we did for cars. 🤷
Stop worshipping your tailpipe and crack a book sometime.
I as an individual can’t just go and start tearing up roads and install a light rail system. So until there are enough people voting alongside me to change our car dependent infrastructure, I’m going to have to use a car if I want to go anywhere.
That’s not worship, it’s a necessity.
The worship is in your incessent need to defend the fossil fuel addiction at all cost, your inherent absorption of driving into your sense of being so you’ll dedicate your time to attacking people who want more and better options for EVERYBODY instead of questioning why you can’t have nice things in the name of Big Oil.
THAT’S worship.
I live somewhere that never had anything but car infrastructure. Should I ride my bike across a 5 line intersection to go to the mall? And before you suggest my local government install a light rail from my house to the mall, I’m surrounded by farmland.
You’re ignorant.
Ah, the argument of the uninformed with no leg to stand on. Imagine if you put half the energy you put into fighting advocates of alternative transportation into literally anything useful. 🤷
Enjoy your blind worship of big oil.
My blind worship because I live where public transit isn’t good, and I’m not biking 45km one way to the store?
Again, you’re ignorant. You’re fighting nothing. Grow up.
This reminds me, I need to work on getting a bike.
If you use it every day and can afford it, maybe look at brand electric bikes! They’re a bit like bikes, but sturdier and on bad/rainy days and whatnot it really motivates to have the motors help. They’re almost like motor scooters, if you ever had one.
Is ebike theft an issue? I’m paranoid about my push bike that I have no idea how I’d leave an ebike out.
Yes it is but you can get cheap insurance, just like you would get for a motor scooter or a car.
Yes, although I try to take precautions to prevent or catch it. For shopping I carry two u-locks and a wheel wire for my loaner ebike, and on my personal dutch-style non-e bike I rely on the built-in lock and chain.
Out of the several years I’ve owned my personal bike, there has been one attempted theft (they made off with my light, action cam, and bike computer) and that was during an hour long shopping close to midnight.
Look into whether your area has secure bike parking, such as within train stations with key card access, maybe ones attached to your local authority’s office, or even run by any local bike charity of some sort.
I personally have left my loaner ebike locked up in train station keycard storage overnight while visiting another city, there are cameras everywhere which is reassuring, and the bike was untouched when I returned for it. On a separate occasion I left some of my clothing on the locked up ebike to dry, and they were exactly how I left them when I came back to ride home.
Nowadays I just try my best not to use general public access bike parking lol
Edit: should also mention that I keep all my bikes indoors now when at home. Last time I kept my old one out, cats kept pissing on & scratching the wheels, and it rusted so badly
They’re definitely something I’m looking at. 🙂
I’ve gotten to use a class 3 direct drive before, and it was nice. Ideally, a gravel e-bike is what I’d target.
I’d kind of like to get something I can use all around since I would only have one, and my area has some nice bike trails.
This reminds me I need to finish repairing mine
I remember saying it about 10 years ago:
You can see the culture shock in how progress works across different countries:
Japan, let’s build a shockingly fast and quiet train! USA, here’s an electric car that drives itself.
Yes, we should tax ev owners so we can afford more sustainable infrastructure
As a EV owner, I’m fine with that.
Not possible where I live, not enough public transport, not enough bike lanes and too far to travel Daily
That’s what they all say. I usually assume people are just to lazy to ride their bike or feel like public transport is too much of an inconvenience. Nobody ever wants to “downgrade” and thus this planet is utterly fucked.
Pro tip don’t assume
Yeah but everyone “needs” an e bike nowadays, which compared to regular bikes is another step back.
If it makes the difference between someone using a bike and not using a bike, it’s still a step forward.
In a way, yea sure. I have a gut feeling that those battery’s will become the next big issue once gasoline has a way lower market share.
eBikes allow older folks and disabled folks to get out.
You guys are truly insufferable. You hate on cars, but then hate on people who rely on eBikes.
I guess we should stop making electronic wheelchairs, too. Quadriplegics should just sit and die.
Nah you’re looking for a fight just to feel good, foolish person.
I never said anything about old folks, ya weirdo. But since you’re so adamant i actually have a disability but i’m not taking no for an answer from life.
I want to do good by our planet to the best of my ability even if it means i have a little more pain. It’s not like the pain will ever stop existing so i might as well do the right thing.
Heck an e bike would actually make my commute longer, there is no sense in getting one for myself.
I never hated on cars either, you just made that shit up like the rest that’s coming out of your mouth. If you want a car, go get it. If you need a car, go get it. If you don’t need one, GO GET IT. I don’t give a fuck.
I just know like everyone else that battery’s are also fucking bad. Same as gas, same as using up all of earths resources etc etc.
You’re ignorant if you think everyone’s disability is the same.
I had a double lung transplant. My lungs were so bad, I couldn’t even walk to the bathroom. An e-bike allowed me to get out and be independent.
But I guess since your pain was tolerable you think all disabled people can pedal a bike? Ignorant.
I don’t think anything ya dumbass, you’re the one doing all this psycho mental gymnastics blaming me for things that never happened.
Stop assuming, weirdo.