sort of
But I do think there is a legitimate ACAB angle here, to slice it by power dynamics instead: All political leaders are bastards.
It’s not just one nation vs another, it’s also civilians vs the political elite. So while I agree it’s wrong to say “both sides are equally to blame”, there are other useful perspectives. I think.
It’s not just one nation vs another, it’s also civilians vs the political elite
Breaking it down further: it is the proletariat vs the dictatorship of capital (the mechanisms by which the capitalist class collectively rules) representing the interests of the capitalist class.
Depends on the specific conflict you’re talking about. Is this about American politics? Palestine? Ukraine?
For example I wouldn’t say that the dictatorship of capital is an especially pertinent aspect of the ruling elite when discussing the Palestine conflict, but it certainly is when discussing American politics.
I mean yeah, colonialism and capitalism are tied together at the hip, and Palestinians resisting the settler state of Israel is pretty directly related to resisting capitalist violence.
Throwing in the standard disclaimer of “my family was affected by the holocaust and I know several anti-zionist israelis who think Israel doesn’t have a right to exist” because some people get really weird about this opinion.
Everything is related to everything, so if course colonialism and by extension capitalism plays a part. And while capitalists are absolutely using both sides for their own gains, I don’t think there driving force of the conflict comes down to capital, but a conflict of non-economic ideologies.
But, it’s a very large conflict with a very long history, so not only am I not an expert, but the nature of the conflict may have many aspects that change over time.
I don’t think there driving force of the conflict comes down to capital, but a conflict of non-economic ideologies.
Well, you’re incorrect. Israel is a settler colonial venture, that is where the conflict comes from, not a difference in religious beliefs.
But, it’s a very large conflict with a very long history, so not only am I not an expert, but the nature of the conflict may have many aspects that change over time.
The region was really peaceful before the colonial project actually, I mean of course the ottoman empire wasn’t great but there wasn’t a lot of notable ethnic conflict in the region.
By “long history” I meant decades not centuries. Still long enough to be multigenerational.
Also there are more ideologies than just religion and economics, and conflict can be over a combination of them. Just because one party is colonial, doesn’t mean that all conflicts are necessarily going to be primarily over capital. That will of course be a part, but it’s also not like one day all the Jews in Europe were like “let’s go kick out all the people from this area because lolz”.
I’m trying to avoid talking about my personal beliefs here, but I’m definitely not of the opinion that both sides are equally bad.
I absolutely agree that colonialism is a huge (biggest?) factor though, and that goes all the way back to when European powers chose the land and kicked out the native people.
To all the people who want to vote third party or withhold their vote, please tell me, when had that ever effected change?
This idea that if you hold your vote or vote 3rd party you’re gonna teach the establishment a lesson is laughable. No, the system will go on without you and you’ll just have even less of a voice/decision in the direction of our country.
There is a reason certain people work so hard to tell you your vote doesn’t matter. You’re all falling for it.
Edit: If you don’t like the candidates you have to choose from then go out and vote in the primaries because there’s about a 90% chance you’re not doing that.
If all the people who are defensive voting decided to stop doing that, our current leading parties would not be #1 &2. Your presumption that we even consider your candidate is laughable. And you are not making a convincing argument to change my mind, at best you are triggering clapter in the people who agree with you, so I hope your motive is to actually just keep defensive voters in their place.
Plus you already believe going against society’s establishment is worth doing, or why are you on lemmy?
1854, with the generous assumption that the threat of party replacement hasn’t influenced policy positions whatsoever.
So in today’s elections, one might point to Democrats who are increasingly opposed to FPTP.
Both sides are bad, but one is absolutely evil.
I get why people want to choose the smaller evil but sometimes it’s necessary to point out all evils and head towards a stateless society.
But maybe that’s the difference between “both sides bad” and “two sides bad”
You’re not wrong that we should be able to critique everyone in government, but that’s not what people are taking issue with so it’s not really the problem. You’re kind of omitting the second half. “Both sides are the same, so it doesn’t make a difference what I do/I’ll just keep voting the way I have/I won’t vote because it doesn’t matter.”
I just don’t understand how “both sides are the same” could possibly hold any water after Roe was repealed. That’s evidence enough to the contrary, but people are far more concerned with sounding like they are “above the fray” and being perceived as big brain skeptics (even if they are uninformed on the issues) so they repeat it anyway. That or they are still voting MAGA and want to create a false equivalency.
It comes down to this, I know Biden is supporting killing innocent children in Palestine.
We can roll back policies that dumb fucker trump might try because people will still be alive.
We might need another trump presidency to show people that they need to do more than support genocide supporting candidates.
Maybe if it gets bad enough the rest of you will join us in not accepting shitty candidates as good enough.
They say you get less radical as you get older, but the older I get, the more I think it’s time to let the system burn and try again.
I’m sorry but “Trump will shake things up and get us to do something” is an absurd take and doesn’t give us the right to unleash what we know will happen to marginalized groups in this country. Especially when bringing him on isn’t going to stop what is going on in Israel and Palestine. If anything, it will make things worse.
Unless you think Trump is going to help innocents in Palestine, frankly, the argument doesn’t hold any water. And if you do believe that, well… I’m not really sure what to say.
Oh, it’s not something I am hoping for, just the potential of a silver lining.
I don’t think trump will help anyone.
What I do see is so many people who are worried about people’s rights, and then continue supporting someone who doesn’t support an innocent persons right to live.
It makes it really hard for me to feel for someone who is worried about not being able to dress or be called by the pronoun that the feel matches their gender, none of which is throwing trans/ace/ other minority under the bus.
I use it as an example to point out the hypocrisy.
I am sure it is horrible to people who have to deal with that, but being killed is irreversible.
I know that trans people are more likely to commit suicide and all that, just using this as a parallel.
If we are this worried about the potential harms created by a trump presidency, shouldn’t we hold Biden to a higher standard?
I’m sure this will rub people the wrong way so please feel free to ask for clarification if you actually want to have a discussion about the topic.
Just because I voted for Biden does not mean I don’t care about an innocent person’s - or any person’s for that matter - right to live. That is a cruel accusation to levy at someone.
You’re acting like we all have a concrete say in every issue of domestic and foreign policy. The reality is we all have a very small piece of the puzzle that allows us to move the needle in small ways. It’s glacial and frustrating and kind of the point, for better or for worse. The problem with your comment is you are equating voting against Trump, i.e. voting for the Democrats, with not caring about innocent people dying abroad. I think I don’t need to explain to you why that’s not really a fair take, anymore than I can say you hate the planet and want it to burn for ever getting on an airplane or in a car.
You could stand with me and say no to Biden and make them run a better candidate, you are choosing to allow it by not standing against, or at least by not supporting the standard he has laid.
I did not vote for Biden in the primary last time and I will not be voting for him in the primary this time. Do not presume to know how I am going to vote. We are clearly talking about the general election, however, and it is safe to assume it will be Biden vs. Trump at this stage.
2023 centrism in a nutshell. “I don’t like Biden so I vote to give Trump the dictatorship he so craves backed by the scotus he rigged his way into so we’ll never have a choice again”
Run a candidate that does not support genocide. Is that asking too much? Is it really asking too much that the leader of my country not support the killing of innocent people?
- The meme doesn’t show that second half, 2. I show sympathy with that viewpoint in my first comment. Support the lesser evil but still call it an evil.
Yes I got what you were saying, but the problem is it’s obfuscating the issue. You are claiming that people who reject “both sides“ are rejecting critiques of the party they support. I am saying that is not true and it’s not even the core issue at hand - which this meme is directed at, mind you.
“Both sides aren’t the same” isn’t “I’m with the good guys.” It’s “the two parties are not doing the same things so stop pretending they are.” See: Roe.
I’m not too much into American politics so I guess I didn’t get the context
I don’t understand how “both sides are the same” could possibly hold any water after roe was appealed.
Well it’s a good thing the electorate voted largely democratic after Trump so that could get fixed!
All lives matter was a racist dog whistle. Both sides are bad is just the sad state of politics where neither major parties actually care about the people.
“Both sides” is an attempt to create a false equivalency between the party that wants to do an end run around our democratic systems/repeal the rights of women and already marginalized nationwide/jail dissenters, and the Democrats.
The Democratic Party has countless problems, but the fact of the matter is the above are incredibly important and imminent threats. Yeah, I’m going to hold my nose and vote for the less-bad option. Because both sides are not the same.
You falling for the theatre one presents a little better, doesn’t mean they don’t both lead to the exact same result, one just does it slower and politely enough to appease moderates such as yourself:
https://www.counterpunch.org/2020/10/14/liberalism-and-fascism-partners-in-crime/
If you’re going to reduce my opinions to “falling for theater” then I have little interest in having a discussion with you. I don’t see what kind of discussion is worth having with someone willing to dismiss me out of hand.
Okay so you admit in your own argument that they’re doing it slower. Yes, I WILL vote for a 50-year plan to fascism over voting for a 2-year plan to fascism, every time, without question. Gives us more time to turn it around before sitting officials burn everything down. At this point in this country I frankly don’t give much of a damn what the Democrat long term goals are anymore because the Republican party is such an immediate and obvious threat to safety, democracy, and human decency. Given such an environment it’s obvious that a few decades (or less) from now we’re going to be dealing with significant problems in the Democratic party, since it’s so easy to choose to usher them into power right now - it’s easy for bad actors to abuse that. And frankly there are already problems in the Democratic party. But I’d rather deal with that then, than deal with Republican ideals now, because instituting Republican ideals now will not leave us with a future where we even have the choice to deal with Democrat problems.
So in summary: “both sides bad”?
(Hint: the Democrats long term goals are to lose to the fascists on purpose because that’s how they maximize their funding/support from liberalesque individuals like yourself.)
Very interesting hint. I do agree though, one is wolf in sheep’s clothing, other is wolf in wolf’s clothing. MLK Jr. had something to say about that:
I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negroes’ great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s “Counciler” or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can’t agree with your methods of direct action”; who paternalistically feels that he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a “more convenient season.”
Oh you’re one of those people
This is an ancient opinion. People have been complaining about America’s two party system for literal centuries.
I thought this was about Israel doing a genocide because people (especially Israeli people) can’t separate Hamas from Palestine.
But everyone seems to be taking it as a commentary on the two party system despite only one of these things being new to this year?
The ideological signifying here, though, is squarely situated within the language of American politics. All Lives Matter was a reactionary counter to Black Lives Matter, a distinctly American political movement. Similarly, “both sides suck” is something which has been repeated ad nauseam about American politics. As such, the meme suggests itself that it’s about American politics. At least that’s how I’m reading it. If the OP meant it to be about Israel and Palestine, I think they could have framed it better.
The idea that pointing out that modern “democracy” is a sham that’s hurting us all in the name of capitalism, is in any way comparable to a racist dog whistle, only goes to show your privilege and wilful ignorance
https://www.counterpunch.org/2020/10/14/liberalism-and-fascism-partners-in-crime/
To your point, I would contend every year in every two party system in existence has always been a “both sides bad” year ;p
Depends on the issue. Queerphobics vs “woke ideology”? One denys a minority the right to exist and tries everything to make them miserable (including bringing them to the point of suicide) whilst the other sometimes maybe overshoots a little. There’s no “muh, bOtH sIdEs” here.
Isreal and Palestina? Hamas is a terror organization hiding behind civilians, in hospitals etc, risking innocent palestinian lives (and there are innocent civilians in Palestine) whilst the israeli government conducts policies of illegal settling or funding of Hamas to stay in power and facilitate a public enemy. Both sides here do abhorrent things on the back of innocent civilian lives, but both do have reasons.All in all, this meme is perfect. The stupid and idiotic person depicted fits the stupid and undifferentiated caption very well.
(And yes, I know this text will start a comment war about Israel and Palestine because too many people feel like they have to pick a side and defend everything that side does. I will not participate though.)
I’m sorry, you are obviously extremely antisemitic for suggesting Israel can do anything bad.
We will need you to condemn Hamas at least 172% more.
Fuck Hamas and anyone who supports their terrorism!
Fuck the Israeli government and anyone who supports their terrorism!
This is incredible try-hard dude
The first 2 sentences were going for light dark humor.
I 100% mean the second half
The first half is definitely what I’m talking about lol
It’s not good vs evil. It’s devil you know vs devil you don’t. Except if Trump wins the primary, you probably know both devils.
They do suck, but the GOP is significantly worse in every way: It’s all about the least shitty choice in the United States which is why we need ranked choice voting so badly.
“Both sides bad” has been going on for decades. Hell you could probably make an argument for at least a century now.
You are right, there will be people who remain to not buy into the side of the moral grandstanders and they will be shamed incessantly for it and grouped in the same bin as the extreme right even though that is very far from their position.
Yeah, people need to stop condemning plaestinians for resisting genocide.
Oh this is about voting lol.
You know, this shit is frustrating. Imagine every day everyone has to vote whether 10 people in lets say a group of 30 will be hit with a bat 4 times or 5 times, and everyone else gets hit once.
And you talk to the other people, and say “we have to stop these people hitting us with bats or we’re all going to die” and they respond with “but you’re going to vote for those people to be hit four times, right? Getting hit 5 times is much worse! We have to devote all our time and effort to making sure the 4 times option wins!” And of course they’re one of the people who only gets hit once either way.
