inspired by lemmitors at https://lemmy.ml/post/49343381
any guy in it just for women to wear skimpier clothing should probably be investigated.
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Don’t you know you’re oppressed! Please call me a white knight please!
there is such an amazing video by Lady Izdihar that would be extremely relevant but I can’t find it 😔
Lady Izdihar rules.
That thread was so ew
I’ll freely own the fact that I’m a western, white, woman and can never fully understand the cultural and greater context surrounding the choice as to why a Muslim woman, or a woman of any religion, creed, race, upbringing, etc would desire to wear a piece of clothing that would to me, with my cultural and greater context, be a symbol of my oppression.
The cool part is that I don’t have to understand why she would make such a choice, to support her right to make such a choice.
If you want to support womens rights, you can’t go around trying to restrict us. If you are concerned that women who are making these choices are doing so under indoctrination, coercion, etc, then instead channel your energy into making sure they, and all women, have safe places and resources to address those things.
Absolutely this, agree 100%
It’s also ew that they pretend advertising and propaganda to change minds of muslims wouldn’t work. It totally would. You just need a good campaign specifically targeted to the patriarchs and matriarchs to make more liberal attitudes to clothing fashionable. It would totally work.
And at the same time work against the influence spreading of Saudi Arabia pushing their extremist wahabism schools. That’s where they should use the hammer.
The cool part is that I don’t have to understand why
On most social issues, this is exactly what should be going on in everyone’s head. So many people are about punishing what they don’t understand, but it almost always backfires.
If we wanted to address communitarianism and extremism in secular society we would do better than criminalizing people’s harmless religious expression.
Everyone believes they’re choosing freely, especially when they’re choosing what their culture taught them to want.
That applies to literally everyone and doesn’t justify anything, men are no less or more immune, and the choice should be the one who is or would be wearing or not wearing a given piece of clothing on whether they do or don’t wear it. Neither men nor the state should be taking the agency for women to decide for themselves what to or to not wear.
At best this makes your comment unrelated, random, and pointless, as it says nothing. But we both know you are actually providing cover for the misogynist view that women shouldn’t be able to decide for themselves. It’s not exactly subtle, not even slightly, in fact it is infuriating. So please, look deep inside yourself, reflect, and STOP!
Yes you’re absolutely right, anyone of any gender should be able to wear or not wear what they want.
My point was more philosophical. It is indeed random and pointless, but I find it interesting to think of things like this. You may not find this interesting or read something misogynist into this, which was definitely far from what I meant so I’m sorry for offending you.
Please consider the context and read the room in the future, (or in this case the OP picture for which the thread is about) the time and place of such commentary also changes it’s apparent character. Water under the bridge. 🙃
The room was empty when I got here, so everyone behind me should have read the room
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Women need the agency to decide for themselves, and not have the decision made for them by men, or the state. The only way any clothing is really oppressive is if it isn’t a choice, and in that way “not being allowed to wear” is the same as “being forced to wear”. It seems like you are defending the choice being taken from women under the mask of pretending to support the choice being given to them, by pointing to something not even being argued about as the covering mask, like a strawman.
It is a type of clothing that many women consciously choose and desire to wear. Some countries mandate it, but it is not much less rational than a mandate to cover chest and genitals in christian culture countries.
Really wish I had that lady izdihar video right now… dude’s as confident as he is wrong…
What a rabbithole to go down.
I agree no one should have the right tell someone else what to wear, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t a tool of oppression in other cultures
You have no idea about other cultural norms and attires. Is the western man being oppressed when he has to wear a tie and suit to the office in order to keep his job? Do we free him from this oppression by ostracizing him or making it illegal for wearing a tie?
You know, this is a fair point, but there’s a few differences.
Not all jobs require a suit, there’s a lot of choice (you could get through life never wearing one). Its also only required during working hours. Not around the clock. Women have been killed over these expectations. Its not the same.
Women have been killed over these expectations
Is that really what you think muslims support?? Can you not conceive of people wanting to wear a hijab?? And even if not, why is it so hard to accept that it’s just a fact when they say it??
I can conceive of an individual woman wanting to wear one. However every woman I have known who wears one does because she must if she is to follow her religion and her society’s norms and her family’s dictates which would indicate that she doesn’t actually have the choice not to. I tend to believe that Muslim woman have a choice when they choose not to wear one because they often face abuse from other Muslims.
Is the western man being oppressed when he has to wear a tie and suit to the office in order to keep his job?
Suits are expensive and unnecessary. Some people (i.e. autistic) might have sensory difficulties when they wear them. If someone is vegan, most suits aren’t so it further restricts what they can wear and they have to worry more about differences in look due to the stricter dress code. Fortunately, being restricted only while working certain jobs isn’t as bad as being restricted in all public spaces.
Do we free him from this oppression by ostracizing him or making it illegal for wearing a tie?
No
But is he being oppressed?
Yes
Alright! So we agree that ostracizing people or making it illegal for them to wear what they wear is not going to lead to a more free society?
I already said that
Then I don’t know what you were trying to say with your original comment other than agreeing with me?
Brown people culture bad amiright?
I absolutely did not say that, nor do I believe that in the slightest
Type anything negative about Israel and the entire comment section is people saying how this doesn’t representat Judaism even when nobody mentioned it
But type something negative about Muslims and all the Reddit Athesists get in line to dunk on them and explain how evil they are. Gleefully discussing about publicly discriminating their clothing.
https://tariqacknickulous.substack.com/p/arabs-and-muslims-the-real-victims
Noam Chomsky highlighted this shift through his own experience as an American Jew, noting that by the 1950s antisemitism in the U.S. had been pushed underground, and Jews were gradually integrated into elite institutions. In its place emerged a new “legitimate” racism: anti-Arab and anti-Muslim bias. Unlike antisemitism, which by the late 20th century had to be hidden, hostility toward Arabs and Muslims could be expressed openly in films, books, politics, and policy:
“Antisemitism is no longer a legitimate form of racism. Anti-Arab bias, is a legitimate form of racism, meaning you don’t have to hide it. In most forms of racism you have to pretend you’re not a racist, so you have to pretend ‘I’m not antisemitic, I’m not anti-Black.’ You may be, but you don’t advertise it. Anti-Arab racism, you’re allowed to advertise. This was way before September 11 […] you see it in films, in books, in attitudes, it’s just not even hidden. Nobody will come out and say, ‘I’m an anti-Arab racist,’ but it’s everywhere, and every Muslim or Arab in the country knows it.
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What do you think is the intolerance here that one needs to be intolerant of?
If you mean it how I think you do, then you very much deserve it.
If you’re one of those people super against hijab, do a say, duckduckgo image search for “women in headscarves”. You will see many cultures represented. They aren’t all Muslim, even. Which ones are ‘bad’ and which ‘good’? Would you also ban Orthodox Christians/Jews, or Hindu women from covering their hair? Rasta women?
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This is framing of women in western clothing as more progressive vs women in hijab/chador is incredibly racist. It relies on Islamophobic stereotypes that play Islam as a less advanced civilization when compared to the rest. Please do not forget that the Iranian revolution that got rid of the shah was an internal, peoples revolution against a hostile empires marionette. The ayatollah was the synthesis of contradictions inherent to Iranian society and depicting current Iranian society as regressive compared to the Iranian society under the shah is effectively saying that westerners “know better” what the Iranian people need than the Iranian people themselves. This is racist. Whatever point you want to make against theocracy is lost in all the racist baggage that comes with the image.
Two pics mean nothing bro, do you think there are not women like in the picture above currently? And if that were the case, what do you think it happened in Iran during the '70’s that caused this “issue” when it comes to religion? ahh, yeah, it’s always the us empire.
It don’t change anything, in any case is there a difference if a woman has the chois to wear a jihab or is forced to wear one.
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I know this case, but it also change nothing of what I said, the difference between having the option to wear what you want and being forced to wear what other want. In extremis like in the case which you mencioned, irrelevant if it is a chador, hijab or western clothes. if it is against what the women want.
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Yes, I understand perfectly, but it isn’t the same. I know that society, fashion and other influences can push a women th use some clothings, but she isn’t really forced by law to do it, she always has the choice, it’s different in countries where a women is drastically punished if she don’t wear a hijab or even a burka, even if she don’t want to wear it. Sorry if YOU don’t see the difference.
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i didnt understand what you tried to say
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Does Japan not have a functioning democracy? And what’s wrong with Korea?
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If you’re going to say Iraq and Pakistan are dictatorships then you’d have to be an unashamed hypocrite to say Japan, functionality a one party state, isn’t.
The whole idea of wearing a piece of clothing for some god is cringe as fuck.
- cecinestpasunecommunication ( cecinestpasunecommunication@lemmy.dbzer0.com ) BannedBanned16·4 months ago
Cringe must of course be eradicated by the state.
Calling what others like to do “cringe” is the cringiest thing of them all
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a) that really depends on where in amerikkka you are
b) this is exactly about women dressing up as slutty as they want which might include not at all
c) claiming that the US is not a misogynistic shithole is absolutely laughable racist arrogance
Fuck clothes. Like, FUCK CHOTHES! Do y’all think that’s the most pressing issue of our times?!?!?
Womens clothes are an incredibly easy litmus test. It’s so easy to check if someones “feminism” extends to trans women and muslim women unconditionally.
Thank goodness the adults are in the room telling us that only one subject can be discussed in the world at a time
Leave the thread. Shut the fuck up. Do some self crit.
Filthy liberal, kids are dying right now in Gaza. The West is a lost cause.
https://lemmy.ml/post/49447631/26460710
HOLY SHIT WHY ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT A THING THAT ISN’T GAZA
Nothing is more important than Gaza
Cuba? Sudan? Lebanon?
Global warming?
Respond to the original criticism. Just because something is the most important doesn’t mean literally nothing else can be discussed. Even things that are less important. Like the completely unrelated subject of racism towards muslims.
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How about the state not forcing a dresscode at all?
In fact, the more women in a country that have the ‘right’ to wear Muslim head coverings, the more likely they do not have the right not to wear them or any other human rights for that matte
Forcing a dresscode on women is human rights. You heard it here first folks
Almost every war on the planet was/is propagated by using religion to recruit its supporters and soldiers.
What no theory does to a mf
Jesus Christ do y’all come out of the woodwork for this. Blathering on about “great replacement” type shit, literally indistinguishable from the type of stuff you’d see on Fox News.
In fact, if you educated your racist ass about actual facts and history, there have been plenty of progressive Islamic societies, they just tended to get overthrown by the CIA. The more fundamentalist tendencies were promoted as more reliably anti-communist.
The notion that Western societies are in any danger whatsoever of turning to Islamic extremism is completely, laughably absurd, a racist, far-right conspiracy theory. The idea that women dressing a certain way would cause that is on par with people who say that gay people cause hurricanes.
Go back to Reddit with that shit, you are not welcome here.
Got it. Religious freedom as practiced in west is great. Can we move on to more advance topics now?
What the hell are you smoking??? Try walking around with a khimar in east germany e.g.
Try wearing red in crips territory. What youre talking about isnt related to religious freedom as adopted in western cultures.
